Classical Anglican works

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by JonahAF, May 25, 2013.

  1. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Lest it be thought that John Donne's famous poems and holy sonnets have been put aside, let me just say that they're likely to be uploaded next!

    The original; and our version.

    sonnet14-o.png . sonnet14-n.png
     
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  2. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Wonderful! I wrote a paper on the Metaphysical Poets at one point in my academic career (before I was Anglican). My favorite is still Donne's "For Whom the Bell Tolls":

    No man is an island,

    Entire of itself.

    Each is a piece of the continent,

    A part of the main.

    If a clod be washed away by the sea,

    Europe is the less.

    As well as if a promontory were.

    As well as if a manor of thine own

    Or of thine friend's were.

    Each man's death diminishes me,

    For I am involved in mankind.

    Therefore, send not to know

    For whom the bell tolls,

    It tolls for thee.
     
  3. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Coming up next, in part inspired by the commotions in the thread on baptism,
    https://forums.anglican.net/threads...quired-belief-practice.2263/page-6#post-32660
    We will be republishing the famous treatise by Bishop John Jewel, “Of the Sacraments,” from 1584. All I can say is, you will be in for a treat, when it is finished and out! (And don’t worry, we are updating the typography to adjust for the blackletter font that was used so abundantly in the English ecclesiastical works in the sixteenth century!)
    22F7E58D-FA7F-424B-B77F-ED2D7C2EAADB.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
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  4. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Work in progress on Edmund Bunnius, "Of Divorce for Adultery, and Marrying again: that there is no sufficient warrant so to do." (1595)

    This is a fantastic classic Anglican treatise on the subject of divorce. Zoom in on the image below!

    bunnius.jpg
     
  5. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    This is just a second page of the treatise. Supposedly in English. Or is it?

    If you can read this ancient syntax, consider yourself the only such person in the world. It is no wonder that this treasured work was has remained unreferenced, and unknown, for 400 years.

    Good luck!

    Bunny_Edmund-Of_diuorce_for_adulterie_and_marrying-STC-4091-726_17-p5.jpg
     
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  6. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The syntax isn’t the problem, is is the old-style spelling and typographical conventions. Thus, unto looks like vnto, due to the old Roman U looking like a V, as in AVGVSTVS, and also the f looking st character, so stated reads like fated.
     
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  7. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Orthography, v=u, f=s, that's no problem! Having put up so many works from that era, we've become pros at that now, I don't even see it. :p Try to look past those, it's the actual syntax and flow of words that appears to be practically unintelligible to a modern reader of English, 400 years later. We are adapting the work, and 'translating it,' anew, for the modern era.
     
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  8. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don’t have a problem with the syntax I have to confess; indeed syntactically it maps well to my internal thought process. The only real trickiness in the text is certain words whose semantics have shifted, such as “conversation.”

    It is only when we get to the 16th century, with works such as Le Morte d’Arthur, that the syntax starts to make my head hurt. That said, I have been able to parse some late Middle English writings, with difficulty. Old English on the other hand, or even high middle English, is worse than German. By the way, West Frisian is so close to intelligibility it infuriates me.
     
  9. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Active Member Anglican

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    I studied OE for a year at the end of my undergraduate studies. Very occasionally its insights pay off even in early modern writings like these :)
     
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  10. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    So can you guys read the text above? The letters look deceptively similar and familiar, but I double dare anyone to actually write up a summary of these 2 pages. You’ll see!

    (Upload it in an text file.)
     
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  11. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    My brother had a printing of The Canterbury Tales that was formatted in two columns: one the original middle English text and the second a modernized gloss.

    The passage above is addressing affinity in marriage, (which is also typically covered in a table somewhere in the BCP). I suspect the author was making an answer to the objection that is sometimes raised that polygamy itself is not condemned, but only marriage within the same family. Hence the discussion about two sisters. He proposes by human logic that this might not seem like a bad idea since the women have been accustomed to living together previously. However, this is forbidden in Holy Writ, even unto Kings who one might suppose to be above the code of law to some degree.

    Interestingly, the last couple of sentences discuss the nuance of the Hebrew text under consideration just as we are discussing the difficulties of this passage.
     
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  12. Magistos

    Magistos Active Member Anglican

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    Jonah, I appreciate the ongoing work that you are doing, and appreciate the opportunity to read these. Thanks!
     
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  13. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Partially.

    This page alone took us a good week to decipher. I'll wait for a few more tries before showing what it says sentence by sentence.

    :buba:
     
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  14. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Yes.

    It would be neccessary to read the surrounding pages for context for your dare to be a wise one to undertake, and I act not on dares alone especially where old-fashioned English text with ftrange fpelling and ancient characters are ufed in the minifcule forme pf the textvs, therefore, in svch a cafe, owing to the greate propensitie for fuch works as thefe to cavfe headacke, I reqvir the promife of a recompenfe fvitab’l for the amovnt of bothere involv’d in vndertaking fvch a projeckt.

    One of those 1950 facsimile copies of the 1928 Updike Standard Edition of the American BCP, identical to the original in all respects except for the lectionary, would be suitable, or some other equivalent booty pledged to the successful victor of the challenge. This it should be stressed is not a wager, but rather the just prize requisite for the successful completion of a double dare, as well established by the format of gameshow television programmes in our youth, since the darer stands to win nothing other than whatever entertainment value is to be derived from our undertaking, but we, having spent the time to read through all of that, deserve a fitting prize for our exertion.

    Especially since in this case I am confident I know what my pious and reverend friend Shane overlooked.
     
  15. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I should think Latin would still prove more useful, and Koine Greek more useful yet. The most useful languages for the divine in addition to the Classical tongues are surely Greek, followed, in no particular order, by Latin, Syriac, OT Aramaic (Imperial Aramaic and its archaic derivatives), Hebrew, Coptic (Sahidic somewhat more than Bohairic, although the latter is what the Coptic church uses at present), Classical Armenian, Classical Georgian, and especially, because there are so many manuscripts in it that have yet to even be translated, Ge’ez (the ancient ecclesiastical language of the Christians and Jews of Ethiopia). Of secondary importance are Church Slavonic, Romanian, French, German, contemporary Aramaic vernacular dialects, Amharic (the modern successor to Ge’ez) Eastern Armenian, Western Armenian, the Arabic dialects used in Christianity, and Malayalam, which is of course, as you really ought to know, and if you don’t, you are a lesser man than I (I jest of course :torch: ), the vernacular tongue of the St. Thomas Christians of India.

    Also I would begrudgingly admit some variant of Celtic and some variant of the Dutch tongue would probably be of some use for something, but the former is obscure and annoying and the latter is impossible to pronounce for someone who is not either Dutch, Flemish, an Afrikaner who was kept well clear of the English and also of German in his youth, or the elongated hamster-consuming voiceboxes one of the alien invaders such as John, Stephen or Diana (played with stunning self-confident style by the memorable Jane Badler) from the 1980s miniseries V. :jedi:
     
  16. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    I have had to read aloud from archaic Bibles on occasion. It is not unheard of for Continuers to keep around a proper folio sized facsimile of the 1611 Authorized Version. I have a facsimile of the 1560 Geneva that belongs to the library at University of Wisconsin in my collection at home and use it frequently when readings from the Apocrypha appear in the lectionary because it makes me concentrate more. A couple of weeks ago I was at a church where they presented me with a facsimile of a Bishop's Bible (1568?) to read from. I thought: You've got to be kidding me; you all have pioneered a new fringe here.
     
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  17. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    No recompense can be given from those who themselves do not have it :) I will assume that you can indeed read it, not just the words which anyone can, but sentences where I personally have struggled. In either case, once we're done with this work, nobody will have to struggle to read it.
     
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  18. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Jolly good! :) Although also, rats, my quest for a physical copy of the Standard Edition of the 1928 BCP will be continuing! :(

    ;)
     
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  19. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    A Bishop’s Bible! Ich muss es haben! Or at least the text thereof. Seriously I will do a rap version of the prior quoted work (which will be most unpleasant given that it is rap, and also I have no idea how to rap, not moving within those circles), or otherwise agree to be indebted to, the man who can link me to a PDF of the Bishop’s Bible. Preferrably one with modernized spelling, but, having access to that edition does warrant having to read fentanfes written in this moft ancient manner! Indeed Latin without miniscule or punctuation ASONESTILLWOVLDFINDEVENINBVILDINGSERECTEDINTHEPASTCENTVRY would be quite tolerable in order to have access to a Bishop’s Bible. :D

    Wherefore I beseech thee, most reverend @Shane R, link me if you can to such a text, and crush not my heart with the news this most esteemed volume exists only in physical form.
     
  20. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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