Why I Love Anglicanism but Can't be Anglican

Discussion in 'Church and Parish Life' started by Justin Haskins, Jun 16, 2013.

  1. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    That begs the question. A logical fallacy. The very initial question is, whether a writer is intelligent, faithful, and honest. We are not obliged to take as the gospel truth everyone's thoughts ever written on paper since the beginning of time.

    In your frame of mind, you might just as well take the writings on Ancient Egyptian Gods, as just as 'intelligent faithful and honest' as the Christian Scripture. Maybe that's why you put 'none' in your religion. Although even that refutes your argument, for if the Christian apostles (and the Ancient Egyptians), were intelligent, faithful and honest, then you are not rationally allowed to be an atheist.
     
  2. Justin Haskins

    Justin Haskins Active Member

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    I am not saying they should ignore homosexuality, abortion, or divorce. All of those things are clearly addressed in scripture and there is no reason to ignore them. My point is about all "vague" theological issues. Divorce, for instance, is not vague at all. It is spelled out very clearly.
     
  3. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    What are your "vague issues"?
     
  4. Justin Haskins

    Justin Haskins Active Member

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    All I am trying to say is...a church should teach what they truly believe to be true, but we will never have Christian unity until the Christian churches agree that sects within one Church is better than fifty million different sects. The best way to have a church like that, where lots of theological opinions can exist under one roof, is to avoid making definitive and controversial opinions that are not clearly spelled out in scripture, which can act as a definitive and objective source. If scripture is not clear about it, then I think the church should allow diversity of opinion and NOT take an official stance of any kind. The official stance of the Church should be the teachings of Jesus that we presently have and that alone.
     
  5. Justin Haskins

    Justin Haskins Active Member

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    There are many...like was Mary perpetually a virgin. We have no idea really...maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. There are a ton. I suppose it's hypothetically possible that homosexuality could be read as vague if one could reasonably argue that Paul wasn't referring to loving and monogamous homosexual relationships, but the debate then should be what Paul was trying to say (which is the same thing as saying, "What does the Bible say?), not what we, today, think is right or wrong.

    Another example would be birth control, such as condoms.
     
  6. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    Oh my! Logic! No, sorry, it isn't a logical fallacy . I have not begged the answer to the question, I have stated it openly as my assumption. No fallacy involved. Refute it if you wish: you will need evidence, because the logical fallacy argument doesn't wash.

    Agreed! Interesting quote from a Christian – might almost have come from me.


    Agreed! Interesting quote from a Christian – might almost have come from me.


    Absolutely not. Firstly I haven't said I think the Christian apostles or the Ancient Egyptians were either intelligent or faithful or honest, so it would be as well if you didn't build too much on that. Secondly, I must have explained myself very poorly, because the whole burden of the point I was trying to make was the opposite of that: it was that two people could be intelligent, faithful and honest without having a monopoly on the truth.
     
  7. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    Yes, they seem vague to me, too. Problem is, I guess, that one man's vague is another man's essential. Unless you get right back to the Creeds and let the rest be as it will. The trouble is it seems no-one is willing to let the rest be as it will. (Anyway, you will make up your own mind but you sound horribly Anglican to me! Good luck!)
     
  8. Lux Christi

    Lux Christi Active Member

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    I have no idea, but although the Anglican Church of Canada is moderately progressive, abortion is a no-no on most occasions.
     
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  9. Holy Tare

    Holy Tare New Member

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    Preserving the peace and loving your fellow worshiper regardless of political view is not ambiguous. Wishing to create and preserve a kindly and loving church regardless of your other preferences is not ambiguous. Opening your hearts and your hands, giving of your time to make things more loving to others is not ambiguous.

    I do disagree, the bible is quite ambiguous. None of us on this forum can interpret it perfectly, but we can love. There isn't one of us here who didn't misinterpret some part of the bible at some time.

    We can also preserve ourselves from being bullied, be strong and kind, encourage kindness, tolerate and deflect intolerance and bellicose behavior.

    If you want to fight, just draw an nice black line in the white sand. That's easy. I prefer the more difficult way, to tolerate ambiguity. I have learned more and loved more doing that. I don't 100% like everything my fellow parishioners do, but I do love each and every one of them somehow. Oh, and I had have to go about accepting what undoubtedly is. There are some things which are pretty unambiguous (love your neighbor for instance).

    After 55 years, I have come home.

    Love God, and do what you want.
     
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  10. Justin Haskins

    Justin Haskins Active Member

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    Great point about the Creeds. I think the Creeds really should be the essential agreed upon doctrinal statements of the faith. Other things can be included of course, but the important stuff all exists in the Creeds...this is why the Creeds are what they are! However, there isn't a single church out there focusing on the Creeds alone. That was my point...Yes, the Anglican Churches emphasize the Creeds a great deal, but then they will come out with statements and positions on virtually everything, making it almost impossible for anyone to be in the church without being identified as supporting one cause or another. It is driving people out of the church.
     
  11. Justin Haskins

    Justin Haskins Active Member

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    I appreciate your words of kindness and your position. I can certainly understand the position, but I guess I just don't agree with your analysis of the Bible. I don't think it is ambiguous (in the New Testament) 99% of the time. It is very clear and was written to be clear. I agree that on some of the big issues, it is ambiguous, as I have already stated.

    To address your point, I don't want to fight...and this is NOT about tolerance. Honestly, if everyone in the pews disagreed with me on virtually every social and political view, I wouldn't mind a bit. I have worshipped with all kinds of different faith groups, some very conservative and some very, very liberal. Tolerance isn't the issue. Tolerance is a phrase liberals tend to use to make conservatives feel bad for having an opinion.

    The real problem is that you aren't asking me to be tolerant of other people's views or of worshiping with other people who think differently. That isn't a problem! You are asking me to be "tolerant" when the church leadership openly and financially supports causes which I think are morally wrong. You are asking me to donate money to contribute towards those causes. You are asking me to support religious teachings I believe to be false. There is a big difference here between this and tolerance. I can tolerate any view, but I can't OPENLY SUPPORT and CONTRIBUTE to it. Otherwise, what is the point of having an opinion at all? I should just keep my mouth shut and do whatever the church agrees to do...and if that is the case, why would I even be Anglican at all? I could keep my mouth shut and do what the church says (even if I disagree) in virtually any denomination.

    I am not sure what your beliefs are, but if you found out tomorrow you were financially contributing to SLAVERY because your church openly supported and was advocating for it in Washington D.C....Would you keep putting money in the collection plate? Even though you are contributing to something you consider to be morally wrong? Perhaps you could, but I could never support slavery and I would never be apart of a church community that did.
     
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  12. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11)
     
  13. Justin Haskins

    Justin Haskins Active Member

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    I think some would say that "reprove" means stick around and fight with them over it. Unfortunately, however, the church is teaching it from the very top down in a system where there is literally no hope of a bottom-up revolution on the issue.
     
  14. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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  15. Justin Haskins

    Justin Haskins Active Member

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    Interesting works and I appreciate you posting them. However, I doubt very highly any Christian in the 1500s or 1600s would find what the TEC is doing today to be fathomable, never mind acceptable.
     
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  16. Aaytch Barton

    Aaytch Barton Active Member

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  17. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    Here at Lambeth Palace we should remind ourselves of the significant position of the Church of England in our nation’s life. The concept of our established Church is occasionally misunderstood and, I believe, commonly under-appreciated. Its role is not to defend Anglicanism to the exclusion of other religions. Instead, the Church has a duty to protect the free practice of all faiths in this country.

    It certainly provides an identity and spiritual dimension for its own many adherents. But also, gently and assuredly, the Church of England has created an environment for other faith communities and indeed people of no faith to live freely. Woven into the fabric of this country, the Church has helped to build a better society – more and more in active co-operation for the common good with those of other faiths.

    - the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, February 2012
     
  18. David Zelizney

    David Zelizney New Member

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  19. David Zelizney

    David Zelizney New Member

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    Perhaps the Anglican Church in Britain should return to the roots of the Celtic Church that was usurped by Rome and Saint Augustine. The Celtic Church had great leaders such as St. Columba, St. Cuthbert, and St. Aidan and many items in the canon are compatible with today's faith.
     

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