Upset about this news from ACNA

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by Mark, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    http://anglican.ink/article/acna-diocese-contemplates-secession-dissolution

    Looks as though the ACNA may not be a home for all. I know of other ACNA Bishops and many clergy who have the same beliefs.

    The ACNA is also "adjusting" their canons on parish affiliation, making it harder for a parish to leave the ACNA. The proposed resolution 10.2 under Proposal 3; Title I, Canon 6 would change the conditions the parish would have to exceed to leave the ACNA. It is being compared to the Dennis Canon of the TEC. As one said "Welcome to TEC 2.0."

    After listening to Arch Bishop Beach tell the priests on QuadCity Radio that sacraments are not important...I was concerned. To finally see Bishops publishing letters and concerns on issues that the leadership either tried to tap down, ignore or threaten priests with punishment (yes it happens) for questioning or asking why promises are not honored is not a happy situation. It is getting harder to paint more whitewash on the sepulchers. I know last October, instead of going to the Synod in Atlanta for the 4 Continuing Jurisdictions, the REC Bishops had to meet to issue a letter to try and settle their clergy and laity. Who were upset they signed that abomination from the ACNA College of Bishops concerning WO. I spoke to one priest who was present at the meeting. As he told me "I got physically sick listening to the rationale."

    Anglo-Catholics are very concerned that when their Bishops retire, what type of Bishop will they get. Will the ACNA college of Bishops approve an Orthodox, Traditional Anglo-Catholic Bishop? From what I have heard from Anglo-Catholic Bishops and some clergy they are not confident the ACNA College of Bishops have their best interest in mind.

    When Bishop Iker wrote a letter to the ACNA Bishops and to Gafcon about the "ordination" of a woman Bishop in violation of agreements and done in secret. He got little to no support from his fellow ACNA Bishops. A priest I spoke with told me in a recent meeting with Bishop Iker, the Bishop asked what he thought were strange questions. Until he, the priest, read the statement from Bishop Ilgenfritz.

    Pray for these Bishops, priests, deacons and parishes as they are now coming to the understanding the ACNA is just the TEC one second prior to Vickie Gene becoming a Bishop.

    Here is the text of Bishop Ilgenfritz's letter.
    http://anglican.ink/article/presidential-address-bishop-william-ilgenfritz

    Blessings

    Fr. Mark
     
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  2. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    He doesn't really state any good reason why he contemplates this. Something about the diocese being unsustainable. And he also mentions women's ordination, and while that's a HUGE issue and needs to get resolved, I know of Anglo-Catholic clergy who are very happy with the way the recent Conclave went, because it now sets the stage for a further rejection of WO moving forward.

    Schism is never the right answer, and is certainly just about as un-Anglican and un-Catholic as one can get.

    I don't get this objection. You do know we are not Congregationalists, right? It is un-Anglican to split, to schism, and to have more than one Anglican jurisdiction in one given area. Following your strategy, you'll be comfortable with seeing many splits, factions, denominations, which ironically makes you more Protestant than you'll be happy to admit.

    I see, so you'd rather listen to a priest, than to a bishop?


    :doh:

    I challenge you to link to that episode where he states exactly that. Archbishop Beach is one of the most beloved prelates, who's done more than even Archbishop Duncan to hold the ship together and streer us on the right path. It was Archbishop Duncan who laid the seeds for that unfortunate WO Commission, and it has been Archbishop Beach's place to unravel the brambles and put us on the right course. He is also against WO, as you know. I'm just flabbergasted that you'd take something he said out of context. If you don't provide the link, that would be the sin of detraction, and the sin of slander, which I hope you will repent of, and personally apologize to the Archbishop for.
     
  3. Anthony B

    Anthony B New Member

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    I heard a Sydney Anglican say that all of this was to make themselves look more and more like TEC so as to expedite their acceptance into the AC. It seems to be working. Everything that set the ACNA apart from TEC is slowly fading and blurring the lines between the two.
     
  4. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    What does 'dual integrity' mean? Neither fish nor fowl?
     
  5. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It means scripture means what you want it to mean.

    In the ACNA dual integrity refers to the ordination of women to Holy Orders. One side, those who see what scripture plainly says who can be ordain and says "Has God indeed said". The orthodox side says "scripture is clear. No need to discuss it. Women can not be ordained."

    Dual integrity is pushed by those who wish to revise scripture and in this case Holy Orders. Get the orthodox to accept it, get the camel nose in the tent.
    Dual integrity is never satisfied. As the TEC and others in the AC found out.

    Blessings

    Fr. Mark
     
  6. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    stalwart,

    I will answer your questions and objects. I will provide links and audio of the Arch Bishop's own words. Even the documentation of his own diocese that give specific instruction to who he will and will not ordain. And who he will accept from other jurisdictions. Since you want links, you admit you have not listen to the Arch Bishops own words. But are sure I took them out of context.

    Just not now. As I have more pressing issues than an internet dust up.

    Blessings

    Fr. Mark
     
  7. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Dual integrity was a buzzword in the Episcopal Church, in the 1980s and 1990s, to accommodate both the orthodox and the newly-growing wing of liberals/heretics. Both could have their own integrity, and thus TEC would have a "dual integrity". Of course when you put a tiny drop of poison int a cup, the entire cup becomes poisonous; and that's what happened with TEC.

    It does not mean that, because if you follow the debate, you will know that the ACNA bishops have explicitly rejected the term "dual integrity", given that they've lived and suffered through that in their youth. When people who don't follow the debate closely ask the bishops (eg. Bishop Sutton), "This WO issue is hard, so are we going to bring back dual integrity?", they literally every time answer: "No."

    I am not sure why you are saying on an online forum something that is a direct opposite of what your own bishops are saying. It's almost as if you don't believe in ecclesiastical submission and the concept of a Church hierarchy. Your own superiors are literally out there saying X, and instead of being obedient to your bishop, you come online and try to spread something that's a Y. You seem to prefer to kibbutz with a bunch of other priest bros, than submit and bend the knee to those whom God actually put over you.

    I may be wrong in something I said earlier, and will be happy to see whatever information you bring up, but nothing can erase this utter and absolute disobedience and backbiting you are demonstrating here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  8. Shane R

    Shane R Active Member

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    That is an easy critique for a layman, but it doesn't acknowledge the deeper issues that clergy are called to deal with. I suspect you are seeing some of Mark's Facebook activity and at least partially basing your judgment on that.

    I will again remind you that I had about two years of ACNA residency, right around the time that the transition to Abp. Beach occurred. I can speak from experience to a degree. And, since I have returned to VA and more traditional confines, I have still maintained interaction with your communion partners. In Coastal/tidewater VA, they are mostly a mess (i.e. the liturgy is whatever the 'priest' works up for the week). There are no Anglo-Catholic ACNA parishes here.

    If the bishops have rejected a term de jure does it mean it is not known de facto? That is the game of the ACNA: let's be in union regardless of differences in matters doctrinal, adiaphora, or liturgical. It cannot hold together because some of the constituents have particular convictions about these things. A 'false start', as Abp. Gordon termed it.
     
  9. JayEhm

    JayEhm Member

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    Quote: Reasons given for the potential split are the increasingly Protestant character of the ACNA, with one bishop citing the goal of the ACNA is to “complete the Reformation”, and also woman’s ordination in the ACNA, stating if the Anglo-Catholic faction opposed it they could “shuffle off to Rome”. The statement also acknowledges the Diocese of All Saints is currently unsustainable as a body.

    https://anglicanorumcoetibussociety.blog/2018/03/19/acnas-anglo-catholic-exodus/
     
  10. DivineOfficeNerd

    DivineOfficeNerd Active Member Anglican

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    I am a member of +Iker's Fort Worth, one of the other big AC dioceses in ACNA. It is becoming increasingly clear that the schisms need to finish. As a Communion, we have been rupturing since 1977 and it needs to just get done and over with. One communion can have their WO and LGBT marriage, but as for the rest of us, we need to maintain orthodox belief and practice. There is fundamentally no way to sustain the situation in ACNA, let alone the Communion, if we do not set a hard line on WO and LGBT marriage. Like the report done by the ACNA House of Bishops says, the two positions of WO and traditional orthodox ordination are "incompatible". One must prevail, one must leave.
     
  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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    Duplicate threads merged.
     
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  12. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    As an aside, Shane, I didn't realize you were in Tidewater too! As to the ACNA, I've not had a large amount of experience with them here, but I can confirm that they are more evengelical/charismatic here in my experience.
     
  13. JoeLaughon

    JoeLaughon Member Anglican

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    Can anyone fill me in on what Abp. Foley said in regards to the sacraments?
     
  14. Cameron

    Cameron Active Member

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    This whole upset is saddening. Our rector is a brilliant and erudite man, and if I had any say in it, I would call him a living saint. We have had Apb Foley to many a Sunday Eucharist and he has always preached with orthodoxy and relevance. I know he opposes women's ordination, and I also heard him speak of the seven sacraments, if that makes any difference.

    I hope to God he doesn't speak to each congregation differently, according to polity. I have a huge amount of respect for him, and he makes every effort to speak to a congregation on an individual basis. Such a kind mind, such a humble man.
     

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