The core question to Universalists

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Theology' started by anglican74, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    @Stalwart I am very disappointed in you. I have never known you to twist someone's words to try to trump up an argument. The the thread to which you are referring is "Calvinism, the Elect". I never said I don't believe in Hell nor did I say I believe in Purgatory. In fact, on 2/22/18, in a reply to you I said exactly the opposite.

    If you can't quote me with integrity, I don't think it wise to continue to engage you in conversation.
     
  2. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Look I don't want this to get personal. I have oodles of respect for you, outside this issue. This doesn't need to get to a personal level. I was just passing by and got riled up, because you and I both see how many revisionists there are out today. I didn't mean to misquote you, and if I did I'm sorry. I hope you see why others and I say that the position you advocate effectively means the substitution of purgatory for the concept of hell. It's something worth thinking about. Also, the Athanasian Creed is super clear on eternal punishment, so I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
     
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  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Fair enough, @Stalwart . I am an Episcopalian who subscribes to the 39 Articles of of the PECUSA, ratified in 1801, which has no requirement to believe the Athansian Creed, only the Apostles and Nicene.

    Holy scripture backs up the trinitarian formula, and so I believe and confess it, whether or not it is codified in a formula. But since I do not believe Scripture teaches eternal punishment, I reject any formula that tries to teach what is not found in scripture. If however, the formula is echoing Our Lord's parable of the sheep and the goats, then the fire, in my opinion, is not eternal and I therefore accept it.

    Here is additional information about what I am referring to:

    https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2017/...nt-forever-aionios-and-the-universalist-hope/
     
  4. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I guess, for me, the core question for particularists is how one squares a God who is all powerful (Matthew 19:26), all loving (1 John 4:8), who has revealed that he wants no one lost but all people to be saved (2 Peter 3:9), has made it impossible for anyone to save themselves so that he can save them all (Romans 11:32), sent his son to be the savior of the whole world (1 Tim 4:10, 1 John 4:14), but somehow will not accomplish his will. Does he lack the power? Does he lack the will? What possible force can overcome God's will and plan for his creation?
     
  5. GunMetal23

    GunMetal23 New Member

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    Just going to say this, I believe it’s a real possibility. Anyone who says “then why did Jesus die?” Does not understand proper biblical universal reconciliation. Gregory of Nyssa, the one who created (helped create?) the nicene creed was a proponent of universalism, a strong one at that. The majority of the text that support this appear in Paul’s letters, Paul was revealed the full scope of revelation. He has the ending past revelation. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is the end. Not Revelation 14:11 or the second death. I suggest you read Matthew 25:46 in youngs literal, Rotherham emphasized, Concordant literal, dabhar ultraliteral, emphatic diaglott, etc. none of those translations have the word “eternal” or “everlasting” in connection to punishment and Matt 25:46 is not even the general judgement. The words “eternal” and “everlasting” should never appear in scripture. It’s not some liberal feel good theology. In no way do we deny punishment, or Gods holiness or justice. His justice is perfectly balanced as Proberbs 11:1 testifies. Jesus is called the “savior of the world” multiple times. I simply believe he’s going to save the world as he himself said. I’ve offered before, I’ll eat my hat if anyone can find a single verse in the Pentateuch where Moses informed the Israelites that eternal punishment is a reality.
     
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  6. GunMetal23

    GunMetal23 New Member

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    Just wanted to make another point. This is the same vain argument every standard Calvinist apologist uses and we’ve all heard for years. Here’s an example for that nonsense on “world”. It would be like a racial supremacist going through the Declaration of Independence and finding every instance where “all” cannot *possibly* be used in an unlimited since and then going back and saying that the “all men” in “all men are created equal” does not really mean all. We all use words for varying situations throughout the day. Here’s the “core” issue if you will, yes “all” and “world” were used in limited since. By 75% of the time the limiter is included in the passage, even as A.W Pink said. And just because it is used in a limited since in one verse or chapter or book, does *NOT* mean the author also intended it to mean limited in connection to eschatological and soteriological issues, it would make no sense for them to do that when they could have said “many” or “few” or other words that do not lead people into error in your view. I’ve yet to see a Calvinist exegete Romans 5:18-19 8:20 and 11:32 without injecting something to make paul seem like he can’t possibly be saying what he is saying. It comes from the presupposition “well if we take this at face value then it’s teaching universalism, and we all know that can’t be true”. I’ve got a good book somewhere on the futility of systematic theology... wish I could find it again, it’s absolutely eye opening and refreshing. We can’t know everything about scripture. It has paradoxes that require more dimensions than the ones relative to us to understand.
     
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  7. DouayJamesGeneva

    DouayJamesGeneva Active Member

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    I agree with you about Calvinism. I once saw a debate between a Roman Catholic apologist and a Reformed Calvinist apologist, and I said that I believed in neither because Calvinism and doctrines like the Immaculate Conception both take liberties with the word 'all', such as whether Christ died for the whole world, or whether all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Not sure how it applies to the discussion of universalism in its entirety, though.
     

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