I must disagree. The cloud of witnesses in Heaven may be able to hear because of God's presence, no one really knows how much more we can do once we become part of the cloud of witnesses but it would be because God allowed it
If the saints haven't been resurrected and haven't been bodily assumed into "heaven" then how would they able to "hear"? If we believe in the resurrection of the dead, then why would the saints want to be resurrected at all if they are already with the Lord and have powers that they wouldn't have with a body?
That's the very point at issue sir! Look at Acts 7:60. After John the Baptist, there are no men more blessed than Saint Stephen the Deacon, who set the example of suffering for Christ's holy name, by being the very first human person to be martyred for the Truth; yet even he is said to have "fallen asleep". This terminology precludes our ability to communicate with him. Wow, good point.
There seems to be a sense that God will especially hear the prayers of the Saints and tend to grant there prayers more than ours -- at least that is what i am understanding is this correct?
That is the impression I have personally gotten as a Roman Catholic, listening both to Traditionalists and Liberals. I suppose the logic is: nothing defiled or unholy or unclean can enter God's presence; we remain defiled and unclean in sins, so God does not let our prayers enter into His presence easily. According to the saint-praying-party, the Saints were made clean by their faith, good works, penances, and holiness: so God readily hears them. That being the case, it's easier for us to talk to the saints, and ask them to pass our wretched prayers on to God. The logic, as far as I believe, is a dreadfully anti-Christian one. Jesus Christ our Lord took on this flesh to dignify, wash, cleanse, and save it. We, unclean and sinful though we are, have direct access to God, "boldness" before God, through Christ's incarnation, blood, and resurrection. The Eastern Orthodox often justify asking saints to pray to God for us, because the saints have "boldness" before God. How sad that they've shifted a truth about all Christians, to a truth about only those who are perfect.
I was thinking of the passage where Christ said something along the lines of greater things than these will you do.
Revelations talks about the Saints offering God the prayers. I do think Saints can here and pray for us to the Father I do not think because they are in Heaven that they are cut off from the whole of Christendom on Earth and I reference Hebrews 12:1. Maybe I haven't fallen far from my Catholic roots.
Revelation says that the Angels offer the prayers of the saints to God, as incense. There is an absolute difference here. Anyway, "saint" refers to any Christian in the New Testament. It has nothing to do with "the" saints of canonized tradition. Those who are asleep in Christ are in no way cut off from the living in Christ. We communicate still by holding the same doctrine from day one, by loving the same God, and by worshiping the same Lord sent for our salvation. It doesn't mean that those who only hear by their ears can hear us, since their ears are decomposed!
Revelation 6: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Surely, Anna, the time of the seals is not the present era of the Church, but the time of Judgment? :think: Also, to be honest I hardly think we should ask the saints/martyrs/just men to pray that their blood may be avenged upon Earth. It's not an oft-repeated prayer in saintly-intercessory circles.
Consular, I wasn't in any way implying that we should pray that the blood of the martyrs be avenged. The passage does reveal that the souls who are "resting" in Christ are able to speak to Him, before the resurrection.
Yes. They are aware, they can speak and hear, they have emotions and cares, and they bring petitions.
Ironically they are told to cease worrying and to stay in their rest; also, John himself never addresses the saints in heaven; only the angel appointed to speak to him, and to the Lord. Either way, this is the eschaton. The seals are being opened and all the dead are waking. Why should we assume that this passage applies to this age? We are in the Last Age, from the Resurrection unto the Judgment - but the Judgment is the final age to which this one is working up. It will be the new day of all things being revived and restored. Revelations describes the beginning of that era to which we aren't yet arrived.
Consular, Nevertheless, the saints speak to Christ before the resurrection and while they are at rest. There is nothing in Revelation that says or even indicates that the saints cannot speak prior to this.
Well I'm not the one who brought Revelation up as a proof for my position. Your point is made, regardless: those who die in the Lord are awake and aware antecedent to the end times. It doesn't yet convince me that we can contact them personally. Believe me, I've said enough prayers to Mary, Ambrose, Aquinas, and the lot to know what this 'feels like', or what it 'is'. If neglecting a duty to respectfully speak to the saints is a fault likely to imperil eternal salvation, I do wish it was clearer.
Revelation 5:13 (ESV): 13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” We see this prior to the events of Revelation: Philippians 2 (ESV): 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Do you believe in the Communion of the Saints?
Consular, You are right. Knowing the saints, at rest, are aware and able to speak doesn't prove we should ask the saints to pray for us. Keep in mind, I've gone back and forth on the issue. My point is that they are aware and are able speak to Christ. Edited to add: I wish it was clearer too.
I should like to say that it doesn't matter what I believe, if what I believe is just a set of assumptions that can never be changed to accept truth. Vacillation is good only if it's discerning truth, not if it's the fence-sitting sort. The phrase "The Communion of Saints" was added to the Creed which is named after the Apostles, after A.D. 400. We can say with confidence that Augustine didn't know of the "Communion of Saints" clause by 426, when he went over all his works and made retractions and did editing to his exposition of the Creed. The Creed gives me, at least, no confidence in this made-up concept; if it can be found, it can be found in Scripture! The closest I've come to in Scripture is the "cloud of witnesses". Witnesses in the gallery don't generally speak during a trial, or interact with the participants in a race to an intimate degree. The metaphor doesn't seem entirely strong enough to justify saint-prayers, for me. Just because every knee will bow across the Cosmos to Christ, doesn't bring it so far as talking to the dead. Always? That passage in Revelation is at the beginning of the end times. Revelation 6:11 certainly speaks of awake-and-aware martyrs, or whoever they are. They are given white robes, however, a motif which is repeated in 7:9: a great multitude, of all nations etc., wearing white robes and holding palms. Clearly there's a connection. Only the souls who had been slain for the word of God, received their white robes first as the altar was uncovered by the Fifth Seal. The rest received their white robes after the great day of wrath arrived. It's all dreadfully symbolic, complex, metaphorical, and open to many meanings. Isn't it a little too muddy for us to extract clear ideas about souls being ever-wakeful before the resurrection?