Is Sarum permitted?

Discussion in 'Sacraments and Liturgy' started by DivineOfficeNerd, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. DivineOfficeNerd

    DivineOfficeNerd Active Member Anglican

    Posts:
    103
    Likes Received:
    115
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Laudian Anglo-Catholic
    I suppose a question for those who are more legally inclined than myself, would celebrating a mass according to the Sarum rite in Elizabethan English be legal? I would reckon that a Latin Mass would not be legal in any form unless understood by the congregation, but the Sarum Mass in English is a tricky spot for me. Any thoughts?
     
  2. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    789
    Likes Received:
    643
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    On the one hand, Sarum is not terrible as far as liturgies go, maybe even even better than the 1979 Prayer Book (but that's not a high bar, is it?)..

    But to me the primary requirements of worship are that it is faithful to the Apostles and the Fathers; that is, it has all the marks of reformed Catholicity..


    For that reason Sarum would still likely have issues that would mar it from use... insofar as it's a medieval Rite (and I don't know if it's better or worse than other medieval Rites), it would lose sight of God in all the ways we have recently discussed... it would ask for intercession from the dead, and for the dead, it would come dangerously close to praying TO Mary, and it would present the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice from Jesus by the Priest to the Father (a blasphemy)... and on the positive side of things, it would be missing the great elements of the classical Anglican Prayer Books in their focus on atonement, repentance, salvation. Using it today would be largely formulaic for the sake of being formulaic, and the spirit of the original authors of the liturgy like Augustine of Canterbury -- which IS atonement, repentance, salvation -- gets lost how they would be perceived today...


    So all that being said, using the Sarum rite today would be a lot like playing dress up into middle ages clothes, play-acting some historical scene, rather than offering worship to the living God, and offering a sacrifice of Praise and Thanksgiving to Him
     
  3. Philip Barrington

    Philip Barrington Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    665
    Likes Received:
    863
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglican
    Could I have a link to the Sarum rite you suggest here. The last time I saw this discussed it was about a rite authorised by the Russian Orthodox Patriarch and I seem to recall it read much like an Eastern tweaked 1928. As such it was the use of the name, rather than a connection to the ancient liturgies coming from pre conquest Sarum usage.
     
  4. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    243
    Likes Received:
    333
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    Anglican, CofE
    In the late 1980's the Prayer Book Society made available an abridged version of the Sarum Missal rendered in Tudor English. (I can't recall if it was actually commissioned by the PBS or not.) It reveals the essentials of the rite yet it is complete and sufficient in that it could be used liturgically. The Latin text followed was basically that of an edition printed in 1526, reprinted by Dickinson (1861-1883) and compared closely with the English editions of Pearson (1884) and Warren (1911).

    There is a much more extensive English verion based on the 1526 Latin edition here:

    http://www.mawson.me.uk/Sarum1.pdf
     

    Attached Files:

  5. DivineOfficeNerd

    DivineOfficeNerd Active Member Anglican

    Posts:
    103
    Likes Received:
    115
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Laudian Anglo-Catholic
    http://civitas-dei.eu/sarum_index.htm

    Most of the English material that I've considered for a Sarum Rite mass comes from this site, run by Fr. Anthony Chadwick of the Anglican Catholic Church. His Bishop permits his celebration of the Sarum Rite based on the fact that during the earliest years of Anglicanism apart from Rome, the Sarum Rite was utilized.

    As for the theological implications of the Rite, I'd have to agree. I was nearly about to suggest perhaps a revision of the Sarum Mass into principles aligning with Anglican formularies, but that's just a dressed up 1549 HC Rite. :D
     
  6. DivineOfficeNerd

    DivineOfficeNerd Active Member Anglican

    Posts:
    103
    Likes Received:
    115
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Laudian Anglo-Catholic
    https://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/liturgy-ii/ This appears to be the Sarum Mass as authorized by ROCOR. Fr. Aidan Keller of the ROCOR also has published Sarum Rites in a more "eastern" style (ages of ages vs. world without end, et cetera.) The tweaked 1928 you are referring to is the Liturgy of S. Tikhon, which is used primarily by those in the Antiochan Archdiocese.
     
  7. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    "Ages of ages" is not really Eastern, since the Latin "in saecula saeculorum" is the same thing, and in fact in Old English it was sometimes rendered "on earla worulda woruld" ("world" originally being more equivalent to "age"). The real Eastern elements come with the insertion of a Byzantine epiclesis, which, IMO, is unnecessary and unwarranted.
     
  8. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    Since intercession for and from the dead is in evidence from ancient times, and universal to all branches of the ancient church, and the former even in Anglican prayers long before 1979, I'm not sure what standard you are using for "the Fathers."

    You also name Saint Augustine of Canterbury as one of "the original authors of the liturgy"- huh? Saint Augustine would likely just have brought whatever Roman liturgy he was familiar with.
     
    Aidan and Philip Barrington like this.
  9. DivineOfficeNerd

    DivineOfficeNerd Active Member Anglican

    Posts:
    103
    Likes Received:
    115
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Laudian Anglo-Catholic
    I know, I'm just saying that "ages of ages" is the more common translation in the Eastern Churches, versus "world without end".
     
  10. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    789
    Likes Received:
    643
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    Intercession for and from the dead is a heresy that St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Clement, St. Cyprian, knew nothing about, and would be utterly aghast at... It begins among certain heretical groups in the 200s and 300s, and becomes engrafted into the Church over the course of the Middle Ages and becomes the standard for a time, until the Reformation.

    Just like how St. Gregory the Great said that anyone claiming to be the universal bishop would be the forerunner of the Antichrist, and then his successors in the See of Rome called themselves universal bishops, and just like St. Epiphanius tore down the false images of Jesus, and those very images were enshrined in the 2nd Council of Nicea, the Church experienced a collapse into heresy in the middle ages, until its recovery.

    You should read the story of how St. Gregory ordered his Cathedral church to blot out the golden images of the saints, because he was upset they were distracting the people from worshiping the One True God. Contrast that with the Byzantine church which was intoxicated with images, and you see the difference between the Church of the Fathers (which Anglicans follow), and the late-coming Medieval Church which some other branches of the Catholic Church follow into heresy...
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    PotterMcKinney likes this.
  11. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    May she rest then in peace with the husband before and after whom she had never any; whom she obeyed, with patience bringing forth fruit unto Thee, that she might win him also unto Thee. And inspire, O Lord my God, inspire Thy servants my brethren, Thy sons my masters, whom with voice, and heart, and pen I serve, that so many as shall read these Confessions, may at Thy Altar remember Monica Thy handmaid, with Patricius, her sometimes husband, by whose bodies Thou broughtest me into this life, how I know not. May they with devout affection remember my parents in this transitory light, my brethren under Thee our Father in our Catholic Mother, and my fellow-citizens in that eternal Jerusalem which Thy pilgrim people sigheth after from their Exodus, even unto their return thither. That so my mother's last request of me, may through my confessions, more than through my prayers, be, through the prayers of many, more abundantly fulfilled to her.

    Saint Augustine of Hippo, Confessions, Book 9
     
  12. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    789
    Likes Received:
    643
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    :doh:

    That's not what the phrase "Prayer for the dead" refers to, Sir Palomides, and you know it. If it meant a sacred memorial and remembrance, then there would be nothing wrong with it, but that isn't what it means, for it refers to Purgatory, and the Treasury of Merit and all the other medieval accretions...

    Find for us a passage out of St. Augustine (since you have read him yourself, right? You aren't copy-pasting from some Orthodox apologetics attack-blogs, right?) where St. Augustine explains why he asks his reader to remember his mother and father? Is it as an act of fellowship in the Communion of Saints, or is it an act of propitiation and intercession for the purposes of Purgatory?

    You and I know that for Augustine it was the former, whereas today it is the latter
     
  13. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    Nice try but "Prayer for the dead" refers to... prayer for the dead. Christians have been praying for the dead for ages and in many places without the medieval conception of purgatory or treasury of merits. Here Saint Augustine is referring to the common Christian practice of praying for departed faithful at the altar at the celebration of the eucharist. Your attempt to twist this into something about purgatory and treasury of merits is as transparent as it is amusing.

    Here's another one for you, from Saint Ambrose's funeral oration of Valentinian and Gratian:

    Blessed are you both, if my prayers will avail aught! No day will pass you over in silence, no prayer of mine will pass you by unhonored, no night will hurry on its course without you receiving some participation in my prayers. I will repeatedly remember you in all my oblations... I beseech thee O Highest God that thou mayest raise and revive these dearest youths by an early resurrection.
     
  14. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    I notice also you namedrop Saint Gregory the Great. Very well. Let's see what he says:

    (at the end of a discussion about the sacrifice of the Mass saving someone from drowning)

    I, for my part, do verily believe, that the reason why, by God's providence, this thing falleth out thus apparently to them that be living, and think nothing thereof, is that all may know how, if their sins be not irremissible, that they may after death obtain pardon and absolution for them, by the oblation of the holy sacrifice. But yet we have here to note, that the holy sacrifice doth profit those kind of persons after their death, who in their life time obtained that such good works as were by their friends done for them might be available to their souls, after they were out of this world.
     
  15. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    789
    Likes Received:
    643
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    I'm still waiting :dunno:

    Lol, where did he say all that?
     
  16. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    The quote from Saint Augustine that I provided is from his Confessions, translated by your very own Pusey. And yes, I have read it from beginning to end. Evidently you have not. Keep deflecting, though!
     
  17. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    Another one, from Saint Cyril of Jerusalem's catechetical lectures:

    Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.

    And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with
    sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him offense, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins , propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.
     
    Shane R likes this.
  18. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    From Saint John Chrysostom's 41st homily on 1st Corinthians:

    But I know not whither he has gone, say you. Wherefore do you not know, tell me? For according as he lived well or otherwise, it is evident whither he will go. Nay, on this very account I lament, say you, because he departed being a sinner. This is a mere pretext and excuse. For if this were the reason of your mourning for the departed, you ought to have formed and corrected him, when he was alive. The fact is thou dost every where look to what concerns yourself, not him.

    But grant that he departed with sin on him, even on this account one ought to rejoice, that he was stopped short in his sins and added not to his iniquity; and help him as far as possible, not by tears, but by prayers and supplications and alms and offerings. For not unmeaningly have these things been devised, nor do we in vain make mention of the departed in the course of the divine mysteries, and approach God in their behalf, beseeching the Lamb Who is before us, Who takes away the sin of the world—not in vain, but that some refreshment may thereby ensue to them. Not in vain does he that stands by the altar cry out when the tremendous mysteries are celebrated, For all that have fallen asleep in Christ, and for those who perform commemorations in their behalf. For if there were no commemorations for them, these things would not have been spoken: since our service is not a mere stage show, God forbid! Yea, it is by the ordinance of the Spirit that these things are done.

    Let us then give them aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why do you doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them?
     
  19. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    101
    Likes Received:
    40
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
  20. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    789
    Likes Received:
    643
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    Again, as I repeat this, my dispute with you is not whether the statement was made, but what it means. To 'remember' your deceased father, or a great saint, in the context of a liturgy, is not a 'prayer for the dead' in the way it's been understood TODAY. I have no objection to the remembrance of the saints, and it is a perfectly pious and correct doctrine. You're trying to shoehorn this orthodox doctrine into the errors that people commit with it TODAY

    So by not responding to this, you admit that you made all that stuff up, in your attempt to strain the Fathers to fit your modern and incorrect doctrine?

    I don't know if you even clicked on the link before posting it there... This was one of the treatises that St. Augustine had retracted at the close of his life!
     

Share This Page