Women Bishops Vote

Discussion in 'Anglican and Christian News' started by Toma, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    friends,

    The great decision about the future of the C. of E., as constituted under HM Queen Elizabeth I, is now under way.

    Church of England faces close vote on women bishops
    Voting 'no' to women bishops will 'devastate' church, General synod warns
    Church of England's General Synod is expected to back ordination of female bishops, though lay vote could be tight

    Posting at 1:54 PM GMT,

    This may well be the end of all good things. I'm certainly re-thinking my conversion to Anglicanism if this passes. The vote is expected to be concluded by 5-6 PM GMT.

    Let us monitor and pray.
     
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  2. mark1

    mark1 Active Member

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    I understand the theological position against having female presbyters/priests and bishops.

    Bishop NT Wright has eloquently and strongly supported both, and indicates that the theological issue is the same.

    I take it that you see a great difference.

     
  3. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    mark1, my opinion is based solely on Scripture. When Bishops are called to be husbands of one wife, that women did not speak in Churches, etc., the point seems pretty obvious. The only people who can say women must've been leaders in New Testament times, are those who deny that all Scripture is Scripture. They say this is an interpolation, or that is an addition.

    Wright is such a good bishop and theologians on many things, and I am saddened by his odd position here. He cites Romans 16, when one called "Junia" is mentioned as an apostle, but he ignores the fact that some manuscripts have "Junias", a male name. There seems to be no real reason for women bishops or clergy, except secular influence.

    I'm just praying that the House of Laity are able to pull through; if not, well, that's the end of that: Christ's promises have no meaning in England.
     
  4. mark1

    mark1 Active Member

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    I find your hermeneutics strange indeed. I also find your use of Scripture similar to our fundamentalists. The verses you mention can be viewed from a much different perspective. In any case, all positions in this case, and on almost all theological issues, are supported by Scripture. It is not reasonable to simply say that "my position is based on Scripture" as if your personal understanding of Scripture is the test.

    There is a very strong argument against women's ordination and that comes from the Tradition of the Church. However, we must also understand that the Church in all its centuries has been manifested within its cultures. Cultural attitude toward women affecting church policy is not a 21st century anomaly.

     
  5. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    mark1, I gave a couple little instances of why I think Scripture is against women as clergy, so would you mind giving some quotes or verses as to why they'd be acceptable, and even were accepted?

    As to being a fundamentalist, you must admit that the Fathers were "fundamentalists", then. I'm proud to stand with them, if that's the case.

    Scripture is plain enough, and 'different perspectives' are just different gospels.
     
  6. Pirate

    Pirate Member

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    Why would you not convert based on the actions of another province?
     
  7. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Because England is my ancestral home, and it is/was my only hope because the province I am in has already gone so far over the deep end. I was at least hoping for somewhere to retreat to, and become a refugee. Let us see how it goes.

    Automatic updates from the last few minutes before the vote:



    Bravo.
     
  8. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Let us pray with all our mind, soul, and strength against this bill. Seems like it will be taken up for vote literally within the next hour or two--

    It's come down to this, we must pray, we must pray!
     
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  9. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The vote is CURRENTLY IN PROGRESS.

    God is I AM. He will do what He will do. He will cause to be what He will cause to be. Keep the Lord's Prayer upon your heart.

    Thy will be done.
     
  10. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    UPDATE:

    The Motion has not passed

    Breakdown of votes

    The result was:

    In favour of female bishops

    Bishops: 44
    Clergy: 148
    Laity: 132

    Against

    Bishops: 3
    Clergy: 45
    Laity: 74

    Abstentions

    Bishops: 2
    Clergy: 0
    Laity: 0
    .

    Thanks be to God. Glory be to God. The Faith has a chance.
     
  11. kestrel

    kestrel Member

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    The measure has been voted against.
     
  12. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    God is merciful. My own personal waning faith has been marvelously shored up by this display of orthodoxy. Signs are "Go", and the light is green. Time to become an Anglican.

    I had an odd compulsion to pray the collects of the 4 Sundays of Advent as the vote was going on. The moment I got to the last "Amen", I felt and knew that God had done something great; then, I looked at the results. The Incarnate God-Man does not fail. His promises do remain forever. This is a great sign of continuing renewal in the Church of England.

    Praying Te Deum in thanksgiving, please join along tomorrow morning.
     
  13. Pirate

    Pirate Member

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    Beware of placing too much hope in the Church of England - or any other province. This is a time of testing. If they reverse this decision in the near future, would that cause you to quit the Church?
     
  14. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It cannot be brought back to Motion until 2017, now. Five years is enough to become established and make a voice. I am utterly opposed to this novelty and error, and it will be part of my mission as an Anglican to do it.

    EDIT: I have no doubts or future fears at the moment. All is joy. Providence isn't some randomly-swerving boat. This is an indication of what God has planned, in some small way that must be discerned.

    Indeed you guys are being tested heavily. I hope to join in and be challenged to the depths of my being, too. We must be together.
     
  15. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    What we (all Anglicans actual and hopeful) need to do is rally and pray for the future of the Church now that she has decided to vote against this. Parliament itself may give her a good smacking, however much the Archbishop of Wales might dislike that idea.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9689267/Church-warned-over-women-bishops.html


    The Church called the State's bluff. Let's hope there are some great Athanasius lookalikes in the C of E today.
     
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  16. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Rejoice, it has been a miracle of miracles, the motion has failed!
     
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  17. Patrick Sticks

    Patrick Sticks Member

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    Well I for one, and in fact everyone else I know is actually quite disappointed. The majority of Dioceses were in favour, the majority of all three houses of Syndo were in favour, Both Archbishops and the Archbishop-Designate were in favour. It was a miserable 6 votes that has scuppered so much work.

    I find the attitudes and actions of the conservatives wontonly perverse, and I am concerned that the church's name is now going to be mud to a lot of people. I'm surprised Consular, noting as you have that the largely negative media reaction that you seem to take hope from this. Being 'that misogynist and homophobic church' is not going to help Anglicannism in England, public opinion is not going to turn around, and we can't pretend it doesnt matter- when the majority of a praish doesn't come to church, that's a problem. I don't know how it feels as someone overseas watching events in England, but actually, when it talks of this priest crying, or I see that priest speaking against the motion clergy I personally have met and know...well it gives it a lot of emotional sting...but the full weight of just how tiny the Church is, and how irrelevant we must seem to the large majority of the country realy begins to hit home.

    To be honest the whole thing is ridiculous, by what logic can a Church allow women priests, archdeacons, deans, and canons but not Bishops? Even the conservative opposition, struggling to get an opt-out rather than block women bishops outright, acknowledge that the principle of female ordination was settled two decades ago. Why do these peope oppose? The Evangelical opposition doesn't believe in the priesthood anyway and they're increasingly opting theselves out the diocesan structures so they basically exist as a parachurch, the odious Anglo-Catholics have a bloody ordinariate they can go to- truth is they're only clinging on for the sake of the privileges of the position and their pensions...there's nothing of integrity in their position.

    There are penty of us who think there is no bar to female ordination at all levels of the Church and hopefully next time, next time we'll win it, something in accord with the majority of the Church, and may justice roll on like a river for all my female friends in the priesthood.

    I just wonder if next time they'll even bother to try an appease the die-ard opposition, if it's still left in 5 years time of course...
     
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  18. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I, and a few others, are massively supported in faith and hope by this vote. It was by a mere heroic 6 votes that all this harmful work came crashing down. That is our perspective.

    Patrick, St. Paul didn't give a jot if the world found the Christian name to be mud; in fact, he expected the true Christian to be at odds with the world. This world is our enemy - along with our own fallen flesh and the devil. Capitulating to its demands of "tolerance" and "equality" would've destroyed the faith in Christ's unique divinity nearly 2000 years ago, and it threatens to do so now.

    I rejoice in the media backlash because that is how the Apostles were greeted. When pagans, agnostics, atheists, and apostates tell us we're doing it wrong, we must be doing it right. We don't exist to cater to their politics. This is one reason why I am strictly for disestablishment of any state church: inherent, in its very nature, is ambition and social-climbing. I guarantee that not half so many bishops would have been pro-women-bishops if the Church was disestablished - they wouldn't have had anything to gain in the House of Lords, for one.

    The Church of England is irrelevant today because it has failed to meet the tide of unbelief. It's that way with every Church. We are failing our mission and duty, and the first step to rectifying that is taking a hard line on every doctrine and dogma. JESUS CHRIST never said the Church would be huge. He clearly told us that men prefer the broad, easy path to the narrow. This sort of heroic virtue on the part of the dissenting laity is exactly what Christ counts as righteousness! Destroy and damn the opinions of the world.

    I do agree with your confusion at conservatives opposing female bishops but not female priests, and also their preference for an opt-out rather than to destroy the idea entirely. It's frustrating and hypocritical. I'm against female bishops, and priests, and I don't want a flying bishop; I just want valid bishops.

    Say what you want about Anglo-Catholics, but please don't say they're all about pensions. Though you live in England, no one can judge a man's heart - from any distance. Canon Killwick seems very principled indeed.

    Anyway, a small group of us believes that we are for the principles of the Gospel. That is all.
     
  19. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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  20. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    EDITORIAL by the Independent: some highlights:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...at-leaves-the-church-in-the-past-8336113.html



    My goodness, where do people get off? Why does the Church allow the secular, atheistic world to dictate terms of life to it? Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is the head and the lawmaker, not Downing Street or any of the pundits. Artificial tolerance, gushing equality, and obsequious inclusion are the tactics of Satan to destroy the Gospel, and don't let's ever forget that.

    DISESTABLISHMENT, NOW.

    Also, thanks be to God for putting the brakes on this awful legislation.
     

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