What is the Unforgivable Sin

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by bwallac2335, Nov 2, 2020.

  1. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    We are saved "by grace through faith, it is not of works..." Do not try to confuse people by saying that faith could be viewed as a work. Paul says it is something different from works. Grace is the gift of God. Faith is believing, trusting in God. Grace is received through faith. This is supported by Romans 10:9-10, Jesus' words which are found in multiple chapters of John, etc. wherein He tells people that they must "believe" or "have faith" to receive. The double-minded person whose beliefs waver and shift can expect to receive nothing (James 1). Faith may be likened to a pipe that carries water or to an electrical conduit that transports electrons; without the pipe or the conduit there is no transmission and no reception at the other end!

    Suppose Sam is living as a pauper, and someone comes and tells Sam that he has a bank account with a billion pounds in it. If Sam don't believe them and don't access the account, and if Same furthermore insists that he is not a billionaire nor does he want to have anything to do with a billion pounds, is he a billionaire? Sam could be (has the opportunity to become) a billionaire, but by his own admission and lifestyle he is not a billionaire. He is not one because he never received it unto himself. Sam would have to have an internal change before he could be a billionaire.

    Similarly, unless a person has an internal change.... unless he comes to believe that Christ is real, Christ was crucified to death and raised from the tomb for the remission of his (the person's) sins, that person does not have the means to receive God's saving grace. The transmission line (faith) does not exist!

    Now, am I saying that an individual can force himself to believe in Christ? Can he 'work up' enough faith? No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is, scriptural basis does not exist for the view that God will supply saving grace in spite of (even against the will of) a person who never had faith to receive grace in this lifetime. So many places in scripture emphasize the need for faith in this life, in the 'here and now,' to avoid the peril of eternal damnation that we may not legitimately interpret God's intentions on this matter in any other way.

    And btw, your reliance on the story of the prodigal son is misplaced; the prodical son repented and returned home, and the other son never left to begin with. Neither one stayed away from father's house until death. Unbelievers are not in the father's house, never have been, and won't be unless they come to believe!
     
  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    (But if you will not confess and believe, you will not be saved.)

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


    Faith comes by hearing the word of God, the message of God, the good news about Jesus Christ. This is why we are told to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Not mainly so people can improve their temporal lives, but mainly so people can receive God's gifts for all eternity. Faith is not a work, to be produced by man, but faith can grow and develop in a man as he hears and accepts God's truth.
     
  3. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I'm not trying to "confuse people by saying that faith could be viewed as a work.", Never have, never will. Works of The Law are not necessarily done in faith and even if they are they cannot earn salvation. Salvation cannot be earned. The "wages" of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom.6:23.

    It is eternal life that is the gift of Grace and the gift comes from the only one who can give it; God. And it does not come as a reward for "FAITH". Faith merely enables reception of what already exited for the world since Christ died upon a Calvary cross. Namely (their sins are no longer held against them). That is our Gospel, along with a plea that they should be therefore reconciled to God as God is with them through the death of His Son Jesus Christ. There would be a price to be paid though if they refuse to be reconciled but that is another matter, they are still the recipients of GRACE along with the rest of the human race.

    You correctly point out though that being a recipient of grace does no one any good if they choose not to believe their sins are "no longer held against them" and continue on their present selfish course to destruction of body and soul.

    There is no evidence provided in the story, that the Father was satisfactorily convinced of the prodigal son's sincerity of repentance. None whatever! In fact It was only his dire circumstances that drove the Prodigal back with his cock and bull story about becoming one of his Father's skivvies to work away his offences as a hired hand. The Father refused to let him deliver his whole, well prepared spiel, and stopped him before he could even finish his 'get out the pig sty free, "I'll be your oh so willing servant', sales pitch. Luke 15:21. (Don't know if you have ever noticed that)? That's GRACE.

    You've been reading it all wrong. The prodigal began losing his life the moment his money began running out. Luke 15:14. He was nearly dead by the time he was envious of the pig's dinners in the troughs. Luke 15:15-17. Not until then did he hatch his plan for getting himself "saved". Luke 15:18-19. It was not repentance but an empty belly that drove him home to his Father, who he still probably resented as an overbearing Boss. That, presumably was why he left in the first place. Incidentally The Father by the time the prodigal had left with half the estates assets to blow on whores and booze, was already "Dead" as far as the Prodigal son was concerned, because you can't inherit your father's property until he's effectively already dead. The prodigal had in effect done the old man out of his own farm by demanding he make out his will and could drop dead if he liked soon after, as much as the Prodigal cared. The Father's property had been shared between the Prodigal and his brother. Luke 15:11-12. The Father was left with nothing, the other son did all the work and probably also made all the decisions. (With an insincere, mealy mouthed pretence that his Dad was actually still in control of the farm). Hence his anger at his Dad pinching his fatted calf and serving it up to his no account brother without so much as a 'by your leave'. Luke 15:25-30.

    His attitude to his Father is anything but servile and he had utterly disowned his brother and accused his Father of favouritism for "This son of yours". Luke 15:30.

    I wonder what you make of verse 32 then? Luke 15:31-32.

    Basing one's theological insight on an in depth study of the parables of Our Master is never "misplaced" and far more "reliable" than swallowing whole the pig pods of Conservative Evangelical Doctrinal Statements concerning what they say the bible says happens to us all after we are dead.

    You may be right about that but neither the Prodigal or his brother were in their Father's house. The Prodigal pushed off as soon as he could get the funds to get away from it. The other brother got the farm, which was divided between the two brothers. It was entirely HIS house, not the Fathers anymore. Luke 15:11-12. He already has everything the Father used to own. "And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is [now] yours'. Luke 15:31.

    And I have not even begun to explain what all this means in terms of salvation.
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  4. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Rev. 12:11 doesn't support this proposition, so I'll go right to Rev. 5.
    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


    Notice that the ones who sing this song are saying they've been redeemed "out of" all the peoples and nations. This shows that not all are redeemed, but only some out of all.

    You're confusing the power potential of Christ's redemptive act to apply to all lives, with actual application to all lives. He died for all who would receive Him, which potentially (and theoretically) could be all people; His redemptive power would not run out before saving every last human being who ever lived, but humans still must receive it by means of faith.

    Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    To them who receive Him not, He gives no power to become a son of God. Even when Jesus walked the earth, did power go out of Him to those who did not believe in Him? No! In His own home town Jesus could do no mighty miracles, because the people did not have faith to receive miracle-working power from Him. Yet Jesus certainly had more than enough power in Him to work tons of mighty miracles; He had enough power to work a miracle for every single human being there, but they did not receive because they did not believe. Likewise, those who die in their sins will not receive eternal life because they did not believe.
     
  5. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    The prodigal son said to himself,
    Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
    Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

    The allegation of a secret, unrepentant attitude in the prodigal son is wholly unsupported, and it even flies in the face of what Jesus was telling the people in this story: that sinners can repent, and repentant sinners should receive mercy; but the Pharisees saw repentant sinners as nothing more than unworthy reprobates (see Luke 15:2). Stop being like the Pharisees, and see!
     
  6. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Everything was ok right up to thou shalt be saved. Then after the opening bracket it all went to pot and became like 'an offer one can't refuse', from a Mafiosi henchman. :unsure: That's not 'Good' News. That's demanding repentance by threats. A bit the way a protection racket works.
    Faith may be the means to an end, but it is entirely God that provides both the means and the end. He knows what he is about.
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  7. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Not threats. Facts. A fair warning, if you will. When your mother told you to not touch the hot stove or you'll get burned, was that a threat? O_o
    Once again, let's recall that the one who said, "He that believeth not shall be damned," knows what He is about.

    2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil...
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  8. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    A deserving 'Like' for all that but, how about the context of who this information is being addressed to?

    Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. . . . . .

    Now you can appeal to the truth of verses 6 to 9.

    Likewise the 2 Thessalonians passage.

    We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering —

    The evidence of the 'righteous judgment of God' is their steadfastness and faith, in the face of persecution. Christ himself said: "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:" Luke 12:51.
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