What is the Anglican Church's view of the perpetual virginity of Mary?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Tom, May 30, 2017.

  1. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    224
    Likes Received:
    391
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Happy Anglican
    that's nice the the Pope's man said this. Show me where the Council agreed. Canon 8 of said Council limited the Power of Bishops to their Diocese. Rome had no more power than Cyprus. The Canons are what matter, not the discussion.

    Blessings

    Fr. Mark
     
  2. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    224
    Likes Received:
    391
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Happy Anglican
    Reference please. Give us the link to the site. As I have already shown, sites you link to play loose with what the Orthodox Churches believe.

    Blessings

    Fr. Mark
     
  3. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    224
    Likes Received:
    391
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Happy Anglican
    Oh my let's play the body count game shall we?

    St Barthomew's Day Massacre from 24 Aug to 3 Oct 1572. In Paris alone 25,000 protestants were killed.


    Edict of Fontainebleau 1643 outlawed Protestant services in France.

    The Edict of Tolerance 1787 stopped the killing. It was not until the French Revolution and the power of the Roman Church was destroyed in France that protestants were given equal right with The Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen 1790.
    Here are two academic sources for you:

    Upshall, M. (ed.) (1990), The Hutchinson Paperback Encyclopedia, Arrow Books, London, ISBN 0-09-978200-6 paperback
    Benedict, Philip (1991). The Huguenot Population of France, 1600–1685: The Demographic Fate and Customs of a Religious Minority. Philadelphia: The American Philosophical Society. p. 8. ISBN 0-87169-815-3.


    Once again if you find you home in Rome.....good for you, have a blessed day. But stop the silly childishness of trying to prove you point with half truths and sayings. You found your home in Rome, good. Ours is not. Been there done that won't go back. Your poor attempts at trumpeting Rome will not work. Just like the Muslim who can here a few years ago.

    Be more like Aidan. It would serve you well.

    Blessings

    Fr. Mark




     
    Tom, PotterMcKinney and alphaomega like this.
  4. Christina

    Christina Active Member

    Posts:
    267
    Likes Received:
    222
    Country:
    England
    Religion:
    Anglican;Eastern Orthodox
    You mean the Orthodox Catholic Church before the schism.
     
    alphaomega likes this.
  5. Christina

    Christina Active Member

    Posts:
    267
    Likes Received:
    222
    Country:
    England
    Religion:
    Anglican;Eastern Orthodox
    I'm not a member of the EO Church so don't really feel qualified to comment from an eastern perspective - I am attracted to EO thought and belief and am reading/learning a lot - but I am Anglican and attend an Anglican, not EO, Church. However, my understanding is that the EO do not accept that we are guilty of Adam's sin, but rather than we are born with the inclination to sin. They believe that we have inherited the consequences of Adam's sin - the main consequence of which is death. This gives an interesting overview of the Eastern Orthodox (and eastern catholic) understanding. http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/articles/ancestral_versus_original_sin
     
    Tom and alphaomega like this.
  6. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,216
    Likes Received:
    1,978
    The Articles of Religion appears to stand squarely on the side of Original Sin:

    IX. OF ORIGINAL OR BIRTH-SIN

    ORIGINAL Sin standeth not in the following of Adam, (as the Pelagians do vainly talk) but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man, that naturally is ingendered of the offspring of Adam; whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation. And this infection of nature doth remain, yea in them that are regenerated; whereby the lust of the flesh, called in the Greek, "Phronema Sarkos", which some do expound the wisdom, some sensuality, some the affection, some the desire, of the flesh, is not subject to the Law of God. And although there is no condemnation for them that believe and are baptized, yet the Apostle doth confess, that concupiscence and lust hath of itself the nature of sin.
     
    Dave Kemp likes this.
  7. Christina

    Christina Active Member

    Posts:
    267
    Likes Received:
    222
    Country:
    England
    Religion:
    Anglican;Eastern Orthodox
    I think the EO view is just a different understanding of original sin from that held by the RC Church and to differentiate some use the term ancestral sin. They mainly do not hold to the belief that we are guilty of Adam's sin, rather that we have inherited the consequences of that sin which includes an inclination towards sin. I like the word "infection" within the Article - an illness to be cured.
     
  8. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

    Posts:
    316
    Likes Received:
    200
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    PECUSA
    I apologize for the misunderstanding. Still, I hold a similar view of inclination rather than guilt. I know that to be eastern in conception, but I'm curious if the idea that one can be damned for that inclination or infection follows for them.
     
  9. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    952
    Likes Received:
    603
    Country:
    N Ireland
    Religion:
    Traditional RomanCatholic
    Mark , in what way would you like him to be more like me? Also I'd like to hear why you turned away from Rome
     
  10. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    571
    Likes Received:
    619
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican
  11. Christina

    Christina Active Member

    Posts:
    267
    Likes Received:
    222
    Country:
    England
    Religion:
    Anglican;Eastern Orthodox
    Oh, no need to apologise - my religion confusingly shows Anglican and Eastern Orthodox!
    I don't believe that the idea is that you are damned for that inclination. I think it is that will all sin (due to the inclination) and that therefore we are all in need of healing.
     
    alphaomega likes this.
  12. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

    Posts:
    316
    Likes Received:
    200
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    PECUSA
    That makes enough sense to me, though I still hold my conviction at this time. Functionally, though, I don't see it really mattering, to be honest, as the implications are both the same: every one of us is marred by sin.
     
  13. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    224
    Likes Received:
    391
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Happy Anglican
    Aidan,

    We disagree on issues. We do it in brotherly love. No gotcha posts. No post going over the top to prove you are correct. I have seen nothing but
    respectful posts, even when you were not in the Christian faith but in the bahai faith. You dialogue without presuming to preach to the unenlightened.

    As to why I left Rome. I posted it here back in 2015 I believe. So I will not go into detail. Here is a brief outline:

    Was Anglican, very catholic Anglican. Not happy with the Baptist in robes mentality of Anglicans in my area or the charismatic types of Anglicans who get "slain in the spirit" when taking Holy Eucharist. ie take Communion and fall on the floor "speaking in tongues".

    The Anglicans wanted me gone. Pope Benedict proposed the Ordinariate. Looked good. So off to Rome. Sadly it was the bait and switch. Cardinal Wurel got Stenson placed in charge.....a good TECer. Much of what I disliked about Anglicanism was in Rome. Traditional and Orthodox Anglicans were given a hard time by Wurel and company. Stenson, well cronyism carried the day. I began my studies. The Roman Church made many claims not backed by Scripture and Tradition. The Social Justice movement within Roman Catholicism is warmed over communism beginning in Quadragesimo anno. The liturgy is man centered....ordinary form, the Latin Form while lovely is not practical.

    Rome added dogma's and held synods attempting to impose it will over the Church. I and most of my Anglican priest friends who when to Rome realized we could be better Catholics in Anglicanism than in Rome. We returned.

    To close, I found the claims of Rome to be without support in history, apostolic and church fathers, scripture and tradition.

    Do I think the Roman Church is Christian? Yes I do.
    Do I think the Roman Church has errors? Yes I do.
    Do I think the Anglican Church has errors? Yes I do.
    Which for me is a better expression of the Catholic faith? The Anglican Church.
    Does it bother me if you think the Roman Catholic Church is a better expression for you? No it does not.

    If an Anglican believes the Roman Church is the best place he/she can worship our God, I say go with the Blessing of God and my good will. But do not act like our friend.

    One other thing. Lack of respect of who I am. My mentor at the Roman Catholic College, the Chair of the Theology Department, always called me Father. The only Roman Catholic there to do so. The local Roman Bishop, as long as I was Anglican called me Father Brown. The moment I converted, not even Mr. Brown. I was told my ministry was respected. It was not. Rome said I was Anglican and my orders absolutely null and utterly void. When I presented evidence my orders were acceptable, my Bishop's line of Succession goes through the Polish National Catholic Church (which Rome says are valid), the ole two step began. They were caught in a conundrum. Politics won over truth and mercy.

    By the way, I just found out my old Roman Catholic mentor has left and is now an Anglican! He is teaching at Boston University this summer and will be back in the fall. Can't wait to have a few pots of coffee with him. He had studied in Rome for the priesthood. His discernment led away from the priesthood. He and I use to have many great discussions (we rarely agreed) on theology, history, church etc. I look forward to renewing our friendship.

    Blessings

    Fr. Mark
     
    Dave Kemp, amazinglove, Aidan and 3 others like this.
  14. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    224
    Likes Received:
    391
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Happy Anglican
    double post. I lost power briefly in a thunderstorm.

    sorry

    Fr. Mark
     
  15. alphaomega

    alphaomega Active Member

    Posts:
    196
    Likes Received:
    200
    Country:
    usa
    Religion:
    Anglican
    I would be interested in hearing about how you think Anglicanism is a better expression of the Catholic faith.
     
    Aidan likes this.
  16. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    952
    Likes Received:
    603
    Country:
    N Ireland
    Religion:
    Traditional RomanCatholic
    Thank you Mark.As to being respectful, that's just who I am. Thank you for sharing your experience. It appears that your time in the Ordinariate was not a happy one. I agree with so much of what you say and can empathise. However I'm also reminded of JH Newman, GK Chesterton and their like who found their fulfilment in the holy sacrifice of the Tridentine Mass, the very same Mass through which I worship today
     
    Tom likes this.
  17. Jenkins

    Jenkins New Member Anglican

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    24
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglicanism
    To back-pedal a bit, I think it would be good to define precisely what we mean when we speak of the perpetual virginity. Up until recently I had always just assumed that what was meant was that Mary never knew a man, either before or after the birth of Jesus (which birth was natural), nothing more. I’ve lately come to learn, however, that what Rome teaches regarding this doctrine is that in addition to what I’ve stated above, Mary was a virgin even in the act of giving birth, and so defines her virginity not merely in terms of carnal knowledge but in terms of her physical virginal integrity, which she possessed before, during and after the birth of her Son. Therefore the birth itself must have been supernatural.

    Now, I don’t particularly enjoy discussing this kind of thing, but I’d be interested to know what other Anglicans on this forum believe regarding what I’ve described above. I’ve been a bit thrown by the fact that even the likes of Zwingli apparently affirmed that Mary ‘in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin’.
     
    alphaomega and Tom like this.
  18. Jenkins

    Jenkins New Member Anglican

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    24
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglicanism
    Regarding the question, ‘What is the Anglican Church's view of the perpetual virginity of Mary?’, I’m of the opinion that the answer to that should be the same as the answer to the question, ‘What is the Catholic Church's view of the perpetual virginity of Mary?’, if indeed that question can be answered with the degree of specificity I’ve posited above.
     
    Tom likes this.
  19. Tom

    Tom New Member Anglican

    Posts:
    23
    Likes Received:
    20
    http://catholicland.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/was-marys-hymen-kept-intact.html?m=1
    In this blog the author brings up the issue of childbirth pain being the result of Orginal sin as stated in Genesis. In the case of the immaculate conception then Mary must not have suffered painful contractions and not broken her heymen when giving birth to Jesus. But the blogger also alluded to the fact that her virginal integrity was kept intact. But I believe that for Christ to be fully human and full divine He must have been born in the same way as all humans are naturally born. My opinion is that her perpetual virginity was maintained because Mary did not have intimate reactions with anyone. But I personally reject the immaculate conception doctrine and thus do not believe this contradicts with the belief in a natural birth of Jesus.
     
  20. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    952
    Likes Received:
    603
    Country:
    N Ireland
    Religion:
    Traditional RomanCatholic
    Tom, who are the 8.7million in your photo?