Was the human heart totally corrupted by the fall?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Toma, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Friends,

    Coming across Jeremiah 13:23, we find one of your typical mutually-complimenting thesis-antithesis verses of the Old Testament.


    Just as a leopard is a leopard because of his spots, and an Ethiopian man is "black" by virtue of his very physical nature, so is every human heart accustomed to evil. Of course, we are "accustomed" to evil in this text, not bound to it.

    Thoughts would be appreciated. :) I'd love to see other translations than the KJV, for comparison.
     
  2. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    Looked up some parallel versions of this verse:



    "If the Ethiopian can change his skin, or the leopard his spots: you also may do well, when you have learned evil. " (DR)



    "If the Ethiopian shall change his skin, or the leopardess her spots, then shall ye be able to do good, having learnt evil." (Brenton Sept)




    "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil." (ESV)


    There seems to be variation between "accustomed" and "learned". Strong's dictionary indicates both are right.


    The verse does indicate we are bound to sin.Or to be precise those who have learned to sin. or are used to sinning (accustomed) find it impossible to do good. My first thought reading this was Michael Jackson :p but obviously this was before dying and bleaching was possible lol. Which actually does make a good comparison. Just as a black man can't become white without injecting something outside of himself so we can't become good without Christ changing us

    Humanly speaking though I think we can indeed call some people good, but before God I don't think we can. Calvin sums this up beautifully in his institutes:
    As long as we do not look beyond the earth, being quite content with our own righteousness, wisdom, and virtue, we flatter ourselves most sweetly, and fancy ourselves all but demigods. Suppose we but once begin to raise our thoughts to God, and to ponder his nature and how completely perfect are his righteousness, wisdom, and power—the straightedge to which we must be shaped. Then, what masquerading earlier as righteousness was pleasing in us will soon grow filthy in its consummate wickedness. What wonderfully impressed us under the name of wisdom will stink in its very foolishness. What wore the face of power will prove itself the most miserable weakness. That is, what in us seems perfection itself corresponds ill to the purity of God.
     
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  3. Dave

    Dave Active Member

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    Intetesting question. I believevthe reformed would say.100% and the Catholics and Orthodox would say not quite 100%.
     
  4. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    (Thanks to Scottish Knight ;) )

    Dave, if we are not totally fallen in every aspect, even in the heart, can we assume that it's in our potential power to climb out of the muck and the mire of our nature? If so, what was the point of the Cross?

    I think this is the one split between the Reformed and Catholic ways that needs to be resolved.