Was asked "have you ever Thought of becoming a Catholic?"

You learn something new every day! I had never previously heard of this.

 

I feel that may be as much your response to the RCC as to them. Any relationship is a two-way street.

I don't feel too much emphasis is placed on sin. We are sinners. That's the very reason why Our Lord was crucified.

We should confess our sins. But also remember that when we do we receive, as in all sacraments, God's grace and when our sins are forgiven we receive God's mercy. All too often we humans may be reluctant to forgive somebody for something they said, did or failed to do. We humans have a nasty habit of holding grudges. However, God is merciful and will forgive anything if we are genuinely sorry.

When I've been to confession I always feel better. Like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

 

Any comment on this? My Catholic friends are aghast.

 

Yeah. Aghast is an appropriate reaction.

Firstly it is of course a sacrilege to use the Lord’ house like this. Secondly, it sounds like a pretty lame party.

 

Well the good thing about Anglicanism is being able to disagree or hold dissenting opinions. I don't think the Anglican focus too much on sin, but as a former RC, yes, I do believe their focus is obsessive. I am glad confession makes you feel better, but is that what the purpose is? Counselling and therapy makes people feel better too, but they have nothing to do with sin. I think the purpose of confession is basically what the new name in the RCC states - Reconciliation. The whole point is to reconcile one's relationship with God. So yes, it does have a purpose, if a person needs reconciling. But rather than focusing on how sinful we are, I just prefer to focus on how merciful and loving God is.

Roman Catholics have a word they use for people who obsess about sin - scruples. When I first heard the word I didn't understand it because to me, a person having scruples sounds like a good thing - but I was using a different definition of the word, one where having scruples is kind of like having a conscience: your morals or scruples cause you to act in ways you think are right. But Roman Catholics mean it as an obsessive/compulsive reaction to sin, constantly thinking everything is a sin and wondering if they had confessed properly and whether they shold confess again. This behaviour is definitely considered beyond what is normal, but I saw it so often in the RCC because of their obsession with sin and the different types (venial, mortal). I just wondered why they couldn't see how loving and forgiving God is and what a good example He sets for the rest of us.

And I kind of take issue with your statement that Jesus was crucified because we are sinners. I prefer to look at it the opposite way - our Lord was crucified because "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.: John 3:16 the focus just shifts from us to God but it makes all the difference. We are sinners, but why look at us? Look at God.

 

To be perfectly frank with you I don't care that you take issue. If we weren't sinners Our Lord wouldn't have been crucified. Do you really think God put His Son through that just to make you feel better? I don't think so.

It seems to me you had the obsessions about the RCC having an obsession with sin. I know and interact with lots of Catholics and am on two RCC fora. Catholics do not have an obsession with sin. The reason they talk about people having scruples is because some people do obsess about sin. The Church is concerned for them and that's why it attempts to help the scrupulous.

Perhaps being a Roman Catholic was a bad experience for you and that's why you came to Anglicanism and it seems to me for the wrong reasons, because you can do whatever you want. That does not make the RCC bad.

 

Well, I thought we were having a discussion, albeit on different sides of the fence, but it seems you have some kind of issue with me to make it so personally attacking, with really very little real information about my life and motivations. A lot of assumptions going on in your post - and sort of unpleasant ones at that.

So I will withdraw from the line of fire and just wish you a Merry Christmas.

 

It's unwise indeed to meddle in another's quarrel, but I'm sticking my oar in anyway but hoping not to make things worse.

The idea that God "Put His Son through something" probably comes from "Father not my will but thine be done". This, though is not sufficient theological reasoning to support the idea that The First member of the Trinity "put" the Second member of The Trinity through something, against the Second's will. The Trinity is ONE and so that kind of coercion could not possibly exist within the Godhead. Christ, as Christ, would have "Gone through that", entirely voluntarily, to save mankind, and had full agreement with all other members of The Trinity on his course of action. His human identity would have struggled with the prospect of what it would shortly have to endure though, hence the agony of indecision in the Garden of Gethsemane. This would have been the point at which God fully appreciated what it is like to be human and mortal. God in omniscient pre-collection of the experience, being LOVE itself by nature, would have been compelled by God's own nature to save the human race from the ravages of sin, by the atonement of suffering the universal penalty for being a mortal human being in a world created by God.

Obsession is a rather strong word, implying mental derangement. The RC church does unfortunately focus rather too much on the sins of the individual, (confession is all about the individual), and not enough on the general 'fallen', 'dis-eased' condition of the human race. Sin is a hindrance and a plague upon mankind, which only GOD could cure and heal. Salvation is in fact healing. Even the word derives from the process of healing.

I don't think 'Annie Grace' was saying the RC church is bad. More like misguided in its focus on individual sin at the expense of our corporate need, as the human race, of Salvation, which has been wonderfully WON and provided for us already in Jesus Christ.

 

Tiffy

I appreciate the way you put things because despite theological studies, I am not an expert in theology and can't express things the way they should be stated. Your explanation of Jesus' suffering made a lot of sense to me and I appreciate that you took time to post it. I simply can't focus on individual sin without also focusing on God's forgiveness and mercy, and I think that is why I find the Anglican perspective easier for me than that of the RCC.

When I was growing up, in a very evangelical area of the United States, the whole focus was on hellfire and damnation and I determined that if this was God's relationship with humans, then I wanted no part of it. Later I became a convert to the RCC because it focused more on the liturgy and not so much on the sin and punishment aspect of religion. But over time, even the RCC's focus on sin became too harsh for me as my own personal relationship with and understanding of God's love grew. I can accept that we are all sinners. Yes. And I acknowledge this every week at Mass as I ask for forgiveness. But I also believe that God forgives my sins and will show mercy for simply being very human. His creation. Maybe others relate in different ways. I love God and I know he loves me. My sins are all pretty small (as an old lady, I don't get up to much mischief) but I still regret even the petty ones. But I trust in His compassion for me and for all of us. I also believe His suffering and death were His way of showing us how much He loves us. For me it is all a matter of focus. focus on sin or focus on God. I choose the latter.

Thank you for helping me understand things even more.

 

Focusing on sin is not a failure to focus on God. I think it wrong of us to assume we can commit sin then expct God in his loving mercy just to Forgive us. God will forgive anything as long as we admit to it and are truly contrite. The focus of confession is not for the penitent to beat them up about their sins. It's about receiving God's mercy. You should come out of confession feeling better not worse. You've unburdened yourself from your sins. God forgives them. Confession can help if someone goes to the same priest and if they're confessing the same sin over and over again. Forgiveness also requires us try do our best not to repeat the same sins. In confession a priest can help you address these issues. The priest is there to help you not to make you feel bad. If a priest makes you feel bad in confession he's not doing his job properly. Unfortunately, not all priests are good priests.

I really do not want to spend eternity in hell. So it that means a few uncomfortable periods of time every now and again in the confessional so be it. If others want to put their souls at risk I don't suppose there's a great deal I can do.

I shall now be "unwatching" this thread.

 

My bishop sometimes gives a slap. Usually light and nothing serious, although it tends to throw American adults into a mood. He confided in me there have been a couple of people through the years that he sort of wanted to unload on.

 

There is a really good series on Stan at the moment called Scrublands. The opening really appeals to me. The scene is set in a typical country town and the locals gather before Church and discuss all manner of things as they do, and the priest appears at the Church door wearing Alb and purple stole, and just when you think he is about to call them in to worship, he raises an assault rifle and shoots and kills five of them. It is a good story where it goes over a few episodes, however, I found the opening somehow appealing.

 

When I was confirmed in the Anglican Catholic Church I was given a light tap on the cheek, whether in past times confirmation included a tight, stinging slap I do not know, but I've wondered about it.

My wife was in RCC Sunday School as a girl (we're in our late 20s) and believes she also had a first confession before first communion around 4th grade, and confirmation was delayed until about 10th grade. However she chose to be confirmed in her mother's Lutheran church before then.

 

As for the original question on the title of this thread. Been there, done that, multiple times. I’ve crossed the Tiber and back multiple times, now I’m praying God will give me grace to stay on this side. My wife and I both were happy in the ACC, but I went on that infamous way that so many other Anglo Catholics have trod. Listened and read Roman Catholic apologetics, jumped in deep into the traditionalist movement, local parish had the Latin Mass every Sunday. Started and almost completed my associate’s in theology at Franciscan of Steubenville. After a while I realised that I had swapped the thousands of sunnah and wajib actions and rules of the Sunni Islam I was raised in with the strong legalism of Roman Catholicism. It seems Martin Luther and I had a very similar experience, and so I tried a couple times to come back to the Via Media of Anglicanism, but the chaos it created in my home life convinced me to return. Now finally for the good of not just my mental health, but more importantly, my spiritual health, I’m back, my home life hasn’t been thrown into constant discord, and I pray that someday soon my wife and I will worship in the same church on Sunday.

 

Welcome back #S.DeVault these journeys are never easy. Evelyn Waugh spoke of those who have a tedious journey to make to the truth, in the book Hel;ena and a chapter called Epiphany.

 

But we are Catholic just as Bishop Jewell said:
"We have planted no new religion, but only preserved the old that was undoubtedly founded and used by the Apostles of Christ and other holy Fathers of the Primitive Church."

All we did in the Anglican Reformation was to weed the catholic garden as someone used to say here on the Forums.

 

When we 'weeded the Roman Catholic garden' we threw out the tares of legalism. The RCC still fertilizes and harvests those weeds, and serves them up as salads (with Thousand Indulgences dressing) to their laity!

Hang in there, DeVault. I don't know if it will get any easier, but we have to keep playing the hand we were dealt (especially after we've replaced a few of the cards by our own doing). Read Romans 4 and Ephesians 1 often, and keep thinking on the goodness & faithfulness of God.

Leaving a cult-like atmosphere is one of the hardest things to do. It's almost as hard as overcoming chemical addiction. It's so easy to relapse.