Update of Church Fathers on images (rejecting them)

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by Stalwart, Mar 24, 2021.

  1. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    Modern day Jews are basically atheists aside from Orthodox Jews, and Orthodox Judaism looks nothing like second temple Judaism…
    I honestly have no idea how you can believe this.
    At a loss tbh
     
  2. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Because I know more than you, that’s how.
     
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  3. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Oh? :whistle:


    You’re mistaking the brutal self-honesty of the Old Testament for evidence of their inferiority. You’re confusing the self-congratulatory myths of the gentiles as evidence of greater resistance to sin. But you’re wrong. We are all the Jews of the Old Testament. We are not glorious as the gentiles would like to depict themselves.

    It is completely well known that the Church was almost entirely Jewish for the first several centuries. I think Eusebius records that in 230 AD the see of Alexandria received the first bishop of who was not “of the foreskin”.

    In the late 300s, St Augustine and St Jerome were still acrimoniously insulting each other about what to do with the Jews in the church, who by that time were far in the minority.

    These are well-known facts.
     
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  4. Distraught Cat

    Distraught Cat Active Member

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    "Do not respond to a fool according to his folly." Lord have mercy.

    Well there are two arguments that contradict one another.

    Such as Savonarola, Dante Alighieri, Wycliffe. Aquinas if you're careful. Not too far after the 1054 schism, mind you. It at least looks good for the EO and not for the Supreme Pontiff.
    That's what the above quotes are at the very least trying to do, which you rejected because they did not mention icons by name; this objection I have disproven because otherwise much of Roman doctrine becomes utterly untenable if that objection were followed to its logical conclusion.

    As Rexlion once said, sticks and stones. Which doctrines? I guarantee you, once again, that the 'Apostolic Churches', which are just a convenient way of saying 'not Protestantism' and are thus a tautology, do not affirm what the Roman church believes.

    I should have been clearer; I asked whether or not they could have made a doctrinal mistake, even though we can at least ascertain from Stalwarts' evidence that the acceptance of Nicea II was at least uneasy.
    Indeed? Show me the syllogism.

    As uninformed as I am, I have heard good things about St. John Damascene, but he is not, for the Anglicans, a church father (Real Anglicans, feel free to correct).
    What a happy coincidence.
    This issue is precisely why tradition cannot be on the same level of authority with the Bible in my view, because then you wind up needing a tradition on your tradition, as it were.
    Then how indeed am I supposed to conclude that the Roman church has not erred from the Apostolic Faith? Platitudinous.

    Am I therefore exempted from working out my salvation with fear and trembling?

    And I could just as easily be satisfied that Johnny C. et al. liberated us from Roman errors.
    Indeed! Such as the Roman church's appalling perversions of Christ's abundant grace. Incidentally, you said what constitutes idolatry is not a 'non-essential' issue on the other thread moments ago. If icons are idolatry? This is also one of the doctrines you employ to convince yourself that the 'Apostolic Churches' are so similar. Clearly iconography is important to you, at any rate.

    Yes. You've caught on.

    We've already had this discussion.

    And you should thus avoid prostrating yourself before it as though it were God.
    Again, it's been said that prostrating before the image is idolatry. That's what's been said. All you've said hitherto is that prostrating an image isn't idolatry based off of poor exegesis.

    Then how much more should we be discerning about how we reverence the statue! Like celibacy, it's best not to do it if you cannot uphold it. Similarly, it is best not to have any piety toward an image if you fail to make the distinction, if, indeed, such a distinction exists.

    You are deluded. Moderns commit idolatry through every kind of deception. They believe innately that success, beauty and honor are God, for it is with these things that they fill the God-shaped hole in their lives. They identify things that are not God with the fulfilling attributes of God, whereas the ancients at least acknowledged the supernatural. Your faith in postmodern Western society is misplaced.

    I think you should ask once more if there is a distinction.
     
  5. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    What did I say that was antisemitic?
    You came back with a “possibly” the church in Jerusalem and Syria being Jewish, and that is supposed to disprove my “anti Semitism?”
    It’s a fact israel identifies itself as atheist. A fact like 2+2=4.
    Most Jews are not religious nowadays. How is stating any of this anti Semitic?
    This website has been way more hostile to Catholics and orthodox, calling them idolaters and Mary worshippers but you don’t see me getting squeamish about it.
    I refuse to have you call me anti Semitic for stating basic facts about Jews hardly being religious, or Orthodox Judaism being nothing like second temple Judaism.
    I have heard from Jews themselves israel is NOT religious, and most Jews are not either.
    I suggest you read carefully what I wrote before accusing me of racism, or typing such a bitter comment.

    Unless you can prove to me the
    Majority of Jews are practicing and show me how exactly Orthodox Judaism has kept the “pristine faith” of second temple Judaism ill stand by what I said.
    Facts shouldn’t have to be hidden because you feel they’re racist
     
  6. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    Not really. You are the one who seems to think Jews easily keep the faith less idolatrous for some reason. I obviously do not believe the venerable patriarchs of the Old Testament are inferior, neither all the holy women. I do think they were a people of their time, and like all people with a lack of science and education, tended to fall more often into idolatry of statues than a modern day first worlders. This is not because I think they are inferior, it’s because it’s a fact. No one in the first world worships statues like they can eat the fruit or rice you set before it.


    You assert Jews more easily keep the faith out of idolatry. I merely point out their very real flaws. This somehow means I am saying they’re inferior.
    Do you not see how things aren’t adding up here?
    I have never said they were inferior. I repeat, they are not inferior, but they do not more easily keep from idolatry than pagan gentiles.
    The Jews turned to idols at every corner, like modern day men turn to pornography or modern day women to obsession with plastic surgery. It was what **at their time** tempted people the most. So again, no idea why you would say a Jew kept the faith less idolatrous.
    It’s like me saying men in the 5th century saw less naked women than men in our modern porn culture. Obviously not true
     
  7. Distraught Cat

    Distraught Cat Active Member

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    Please review the following information:
    You have literally devoted weeks to arguing with the members of the forum about these issues.
     
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  8. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    Yes this is a different type of idolatry. As I said several times in this thread, ancient people’s believed that statues could constrain divinity. This is not a modern day version of idolatry. The only religions that believe this are ancient eastern ones like Hindus.
    I think you need to read what I’m writing a little bit more carefully before you reply. You replied this to me specifically talking about statues imbued with divinity. I did not say other types of idolatry are not present. I said this type is uncommon among the first world. And it is.


    You are free to believe in your exegesis of the Bible. Just know that not everyone has time or will or knowledge to sort through millions of church writings and determine which councils are ok and which are idolatrous based off their 21st century interpretation of the Bible.
     
  9. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Let’s pull this back on topic. Again.

    The whole point about the Jews in the Church was, that the earlier you go in time, the more of them there were. In the first century maybe 90% or more. By the 2-3rd centuries 40-50%, and by the 400s after the Constantinian emancipation, a vast minority.

    At the same time, what a coincidence, in the earliest church you have no image veneration. You have a heavy insistence on sola scriptura. You have radical dependence on God resembling OT writings. You have church fathers even rejecting the use of incense, as pagan.

    But after 400s AD, increasingly more image veneration. Early departures from sola scriptura. Radical self-abnegation starts to be mixed in with gentile self-congratulation. Incense begins to be used in worship.

    The evidence is pretty clear that while the Jews held the majority in the Church, it kept strong marks of OT theology. Once it became mostly gentile, the OT theology gradually ebbed away.
     
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  10. Distraught Cat

    Distraught Cat Active Member

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    I noticed that my reply took up half a page, and yet here you are, nitpicking about my expounding upon what idolatry is having disregarded literally everything else which I have written.
     
  11. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    lol that’s like saying Americans are religious because the printed money says in god we trust .

    “Of Israeli Jews over age 20 in 2020, 43% self-identify as secular, 22% as traditional but not very religious, 13% as traditional-religious, 11% as religious and 10% as ultra-Orthodox.”

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/latest-population-statistics-for-israel


    Do you really think that me spending weeks on this forum talking about Catholicism somehow warrants me being called an idolater, and now a racist?
    You can call me an idolater because that’s your religious belief. But I refuse to be labeled a racist for stating facts.
    If you don’t want me on this forum anymore, say so like a normal person would, not by some allegation of racism at the mere mention of Jews being mostly atheist or my personal opinion that they haven’t kept the faith of 2nd temple pristine.
    A normal person would just say “get lost,” not call you a racist because they have a different opinion than yours
     
  12. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    Because I Intend to get back to this topic later, I’ve actually found a book now that talks about early Christianity and image veneration.


    Excuse me if I’m having a hard time replying to everything you said. I just can’t fathom how my comments can be misconstrued and taken as racist and “vitriolic.”
    I can’t answer your comments properly until I’ve researched this, Because we just keep going back and forth on what constitutes as worship or not.
    Maybe we can start a new thread about nicea II specifically and go from there. It seems like to discuss this issue we should get at the root of where and when icon veneration started it, who opposed it and who was for and and why, especially the political reasons behind it.
    I’m not going to read a book with French citations though.
     
  13. Distraught Cat

    Distraught Cat Active Member

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    This is nevertheless a far cry from stating that the State of Israel is 'atheist'. And what modern Jews say about their faith has little to do with whether or not they were more conservative Christians as Christians in the first millenium.

    If you would read your own theologians, you would, again, discover that all sin is idolatry in a way, because sin dethrones the Lord and puts perversion in His place.

    Whither has gone thine abstinence from squeamishness?
    Literally these are not facts.
    Literally you had asserted that the Jews were, as a whole, just as, if not more idolatrous than, the gentile converts.
    Chill.
     
  14. Distraught Cat

    Distraught Cat Active Member

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    Lousy scholarship.
     
  15. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    You can’t just pull this “back on topic” after accusing me of saying Jews are inferior when that was never my intention. It is not christ like to call someone a racist and then just brush it off “back on topic.”
    I tried to explain to you what I meant in my comment and not even an acknowledgment. I can’t have a discussion with someone who accuses me of racism or calling Jews inferior so easily.
    I don’t accept the gentiles converting making the church accept pagan practices.
    I’ve read books on Jewish veneration of ancestors and relics, and prayers to their patriarchs that you probably think didnt even exist.
    Early Christians did not get their veneration of relics from pagans, I strongly believe it was from the Jews. Like wise the cult of the Saints is something that came from Jewish veneration of patriarchs, albeit more hyped up. There are many recorded prayers of Jews praying to angels as well.
    I believe the Eucharistic sacrifice likewise comes from a Jewish understanding of anamnesis.

    So that’s why I don’t think gentiles paganized the church.
    I’d love to see proof that Jews were the majority in 300 or 400 ad. It would prove my belief even more because by that time the veneration of relics, prayer to Saints, and Eucharistic sacrifice are all extremely apparent. I don’t believe Christianity syncretized with paganism, I just don’t think you know a lot about ancient Jewish practices.
     
  16. Distraught Cat

    Distraught Cat Active Member

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    Log in your eye, kiddo.
    1 - was it Stalwart who did so?
    2- why ever not?
     
  17. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    It feels like you’re just replying to win at every single little point lmao…
    Yes most Jews are atheist for what is supposed to be a religious ethnicity. They are the most atheistic of all the Abrahamic religions, probably more atheistic than even Hindus. The only more atheist nation I can think of is the Asian ones like China Japan or Korea.
    I am being a little squeamish now about being called vitriolic or racist, yes, because it’s not a theological position but a twisting of my words. I don’t think I want to discuss christian theology with people that can’t actually act like a Christian.
    Anyway I’ll get back to this topic tomorrow after I read the book.
    If anyone wants to recommend a book on nicea II you’re welcome to as well. Just one written by someone that isn’t trying to make a theological point. Preferably by an atheist scholar or something.
     
  18. BedtimePrayers

    BedtimePrayers Member

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    I may have said mean things on here. Have yet to call anyone a racist though. Stalwart said I said that Jews are inferior, when I never said that.
    I shouldn’t be surprised I guess, racist is the most common insult thrown around nowadays. People like feeling offended or something
     
  19. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    apology accepted
     
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  20. Distraught Cat

    Distraught Cat Active Member

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    *Ludicrous early-20th century RP* I aim to please.

    Contradiction in terms, my dear.

    Contradiction in terms again.

    As an East Asian Studies major, boy do I have news for you. Everyone's heard of the statistics on missionaries in China. And the success of Presbyterianism in Korea. That's just Christianity. I'm willing to bet a lot of money that you know nothing whatsoever about religion in the Far East. Do you want to talk about Buddhism? Do you want to talk about Japanese irreligion? Because its nothing as materialistic as is irreligion in the West. Do you want to talk about syncretism with Shintoism? Does Shintoism even exist? That might be a discussion in which you could learn something.
    Cherry picking sources.
     
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