All I'm requesting is a little intellectual honesty from you. I was asked earlier of I believed in the Athanasian Creed. Do you? It clearly says "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith....it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ....This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved." Now you claim there are other ways to save people when the Creed says your can't. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you accept the logical consequence of your position as an infernalist and the body count that comes with it or change your position but you can't have both.
In the Bible, a white garment is symbolic/figurative of righteousness. Rev 7:13-17 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD; my soul shall exult in my God, for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation; he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself like a priest with a beautiful headdress, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. Now let's look how Jesus likened the Kingdom of God to a wedding celebration. Mat 22:2-14 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. (Note: He told this part to indicate the many Jews who would reject Him and not believe in Him.) Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. Take note in the parable that "many are called, but few are chosen" to remain at the wedding. The ones who violently opposed the king's event had zero inclination to attend; who can doubt that the king would never have let them in if they'd showed up? The ones who accepted the invitation were allowed inside, but they had to wear the proper robes for the event. Any who did not have the correct robe was tossed out to suffer in "outer darkness" where there was "weeping and gnashing of teeth." When a person comes to faith in God, he is clothed by God with God's own righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21). When we pass to the next life, no one who lacks this gift of God's righteousness will be admitted into His Kingdom. We are made heirs of righteousness by faith (Heb. 11:7) and not by any other means. And "without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him" (Heb. 11:6). Unbelievers do not believe that God will reward them with eternal life; many of them don't even believe that God exists. They have no faith, and therefore it is impossible for them to be pleasing to God. The universalist thinks that a man can die in unbelief and yet become pleasing to God after death. How? By suffering for an eon to be purged of his sin of unbelief. Friends, this is contrary to Article XXII: "The Roman [Catholic] doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, worshipping and adoration as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saint, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God." Oh, to be sure, the universalist does not name this afterlife purgation process "Purgatory," but it is essentially the same situation as that which the Romans believe. The greatest difference between the two is this: the Romans teach that one must be a member of the church to qualify for purgation, but the universalists think that every godless, faithless sinner will be allowed into purgation... everyone from the agnostic, to the atheist, to the devil worshipper, to the child sacrificer, to the rapist... all will be destined for the ultimate Reward, everlasting life in God's Presence. Can an unbeliever be "waterboarded" into believing God? And into loving Him?
I respect you, and your request. I will give you an honest answer. No, I do not subscribe literally to every jot and tittle contained in the Athanasian Creed. And if you look back at the comments in this thread, I think you'll find that I'm not the one who pursued this question with you. (IIRC, I "clammed up.") In the main, my quibble with the Athanasian Creed has to do with this sentence: "Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ." I think this statement is too broad and fails to account for some possible exceptions. That said, if anyone wants to question me about that Creed, I hope they will start a new thread, because my reservations are not pertinent to the subject of this thread (Universalism).
Here you go again shuckin' and jivin'. Free will exists except when it doesn't. Faith is necessary to salvation except when it isn't. But maybe I'm making headway. At least you recognize how atrocious the infernalist position of saving a"scant few" is without coming up with exceptions and qualifiers. What bothers me is that you can't understand that Universalists like myself, believe and confess that all are saved by grace through faith in Christ, and not until each and everyone comes to such faith will any of them be saved. Universalists simply believe that all will ultimately find that restoration and reconciliation either in this life or in the next.
No, but he can be lovingly guided to believing God and loving Him who loved him first. Can God "waterboard" an unbeliever ad infinitum for no other purpose than to punish them for committing a finite number of sins and still be a just, loving, and merciful God?
I see an exception for those who lack the capacity mentally/developmentally to have faith or to exercise free will. Obviously an infant cannot have faith, yet the infant has done no wrong. Luk 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are. Do you see what I see? Jesus tells us that there is a limited time slot available to "enter in" by faith. Striving is something we do in this life, not in the next. Once a person dies, that door is closed. Jesus said with His own mouth that many will seek (too late) to enter into salvation, but they will be unable. The universalist thinks that it's never too late, because God will just keep lovin' on those dead unbelievers until they "come around" and ask to come inside, but Jesus said they'll be left pounding vainly on the door. When are you going to stop believing the universalists and accept what Jesus taught?
You're forgetting all those scriptures that tell us about "destruction" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth". If that is 'being lovingly guided,' I'll eat my hat. 2Pe 2:4,9 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
and Matthew 25:46, https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/25-46.htm These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Punishment, when used for an educational and redemptive purposes, is love, as any parent knows. "For the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts." Hebrews 12:6
See my earlier discussion about the Greek word used here for eternal (aionios). It is more accurate to say age-enduring or age-lasting instead of eternal.
This was the reason why I linked to bible-hub for a reason... None of the hundreds of english translations seems to read it in the way you say "age-lasting" seems to mean, until Christ's return
You need to look at the biblehub list you provided again. Look at Young's Literal Translation. (Also, it wasn't hundreds of translations)
Questioning my beliefs in regard to the 39 Articles is an ineffective attempt at misdirection; universalism must stand or fall on its own merits.
True, Universalism stands on its own merits. I'm just confused as to where you stand. You talk about how unorthodox Universalism is and yet you're struggling to fit within the bounds of Anglicanism when arguing that point. Infernalism does that to people.
Mat 10:28,32-33 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell...Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. When are people able to confess or deny Jesus before men? Answer: while they yet live. After they die, there is no further opportunity to confess Jesus before men; if a person spent his lifetime denying Christ, Christ says He will deny the person. Since the only Way of salvation is Christ Jesus, deniers of Christ will be condemned for eternity. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matt. 23:33) Many will not escape that grim fate. Jesus said this. Apparently Jesus was an "infernalist." I want to be like Jesus. Don't you?
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (Jesus' words in John 3:36) Yep, I've confirmed it. Jesus was an "infernalist."
Jesus said of Judas, woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born (Matt. 26:24). If Judas were only going to be gently guided in the afterlife, or even if he were going to be chastised for an eon, either way he'd wind up with God for eternity. So why would he have been better off if he'd never been born? The only reasonable answer is, Jesus knew that Judas would suffer for all eternity.
Interesting article about the 5th Ecumenical Council and Universalism: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/...ZXW23AeaTXuASw7-YQwEHrjRTxlDT8dEfNeHOZc4jIr6s