Trying to understand the Continuing churches

Discussion in 'Church Strands (Anglo-catholics & Evangelicals)' started by anglican74, Nov 21, 2018.

  1. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    By Calvinist I mean double predestination
     
  3. tstor

    tstor Member

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    An exceptional exception? :hmm:
     
  4. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The REC is the most classical/traditionalist wing within the ACNA. I've written about this before, but they have a complicated history. The original split took place under some rather unpleasant types back in the 1800s, but over the several recent generations those have been disappearing, and the last series of presiding bishops have instituted a classical Anglican revival within the REC. Hardcore 1928 BCP and 1940 hymnal pretty much everywhere. Articles, liturgy, BCP, feasts, fasts, the whole deal. In 2008 they rejoined mainstream Anglicanism, as one of the founding ACNA jurisdictions. Anglicans don't generally feel very happy being in schism or separated from others, so here we are, putting a lot of our eggs in the ACNA basket as everyone's hope.
     
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  5. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Y'all just made a new hymnal in 2017. Is the Book of Common Praise not being adopted widely? It's out of print more than half the time. I ordered some sample copies for review at the next OAC convention. My organist uses it as a supplement from time to time.
     
  6. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sorry in my mind the new hymnal and 1940 hymnal are synonymous. Which for all intents and purposes they are. I know the musical director who ran that project: the impetus behind making a new hymnal is because there are no new editions of the 1940 hymnal coming out from the printing presses, for new churches etc. The Episcopal Church still holds the copyright on the 1940 Hymnal, and the REC has reached out to them asking to reprint it or release the copyright, but TEC won't let anyone reprint it. The old copies that still exist today, are all there'll ever be of it from now on. The only way to move forward is to make something like the 1940 Hymnal, while incorporating as much of it as legally possible.
     
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  7. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    So after talking to a church planter I actually have a game plan and the great news is that they will let my priest sponsor it. First we start out as an Anglican Study group. Lets pray I get this off the ground. My priest is in the Diocese of the South so there is no women priest there.
     
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  8. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    That's what I'm doing. We are starting a bible study and a fellowship for us and other young families in the city. The hope is that we can take that and grow it into a full parish. In the REC, so also no women priests here. A friend of mine is starting a fellowship in the UK directly according to the 1662, and his overseeing bishop doesn't allow of WO either. That's how the future starts.
     
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  9. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Yep just have to get it going. I so desperately want a parish in my city. I would love to be able to go to morning or evening prayers. I say them now as best I can.
     
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  10. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    That seems rather uncharitable of them. I hope the Lord helps them to get over their hurt feelings or whatever's hindering them.
     
  11. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    I've heard mixed reports about that. My organist claims the book has passed into public domain but I can't find any Continuing publishing houses who are printing it, even though it is standard across our churches. But I've also seen reports that is fast going the way of the dodo and we will have to find something new to use.

    I don't think a hymnal is a hill to die on. We could use an English hymnal, or the REC 2017 book, or even Lutheran hymnals. It's a book of songs!
     
  12. Moses

    Moses Member

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    I'm pretty sure TEC still holds the copyright to the 1940 Hymnal. My copy (printed in '79), lists the copyright date as 1940, renewed in 1961. Which would mean under normal circumstances it expires in 2035.

    Copyright law is somewhat convoluted though, so a lawyer could give you a more certain answer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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  13. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    According to the US Copyright Office's Circular 1 ("Copyright Basics"):

    "For works created before January 1, 1978, that were published or registered before that date, the initial term of copyright was twenty-eight years from the date of publication with notice or from the date of registration. At the end of the initial term, the copyright could be renewed for another sixty- seven years for a total term of protection of up to ninety-five years."

    So, as @Moses very adroitly provided, the copyright would end in 2035.

    But look to see if the front of the book allows for any permitted uses that might be available. For instance, bibles allow use with attribution up to a certain amount an online versions of the Book of Common Prayer does as well see here when you click on any of the pdf excerpts.
     
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  14. Moses

    Moses Member

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    It looks like I messed up in my original calculation: they renewed their copyright only 21 years after publication, so the hymnal's last protected year will be 2028. So one of the continuing publishers could reprint it within the next decade. There's no helpful permissions in the front matter, but I did notice flipping through it that most of the hymns are much older and therefore not under copyright.

    I don't think Percy Dearmer's The English Hymnal is under copyright in the US. Or any of John Mason Neale's volumes. There's plenty of options older than the 1940, and I'd imagine some of them contain many of the same hymns.
     
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  15. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Reading the Circular, I still think 2035 date still stands. Here is a fuller version of the paragraph I quoted earlier:

    "For works created before January 1, 1978, that were published or registered before that date, the initial term of copyright was twenty-eight years from the date of publication with notice or from the date of registration. At the end of the initial term, the copyright could be renewed for another sixty-seven years for a total term of protection of up to ninety-five years. To extend copyright into the renewal term, two registrations had to be made before the original term expired: one for the original term and the other for the renewal term. This requirement was eliminated on June 26, 1992, and renewal term registration is now optional."
     
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  16. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Whatever the case, the 2017 hymnal is a fantastic replacement. <3
     
  17. Hamilcar

    Hamilcar New Member

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    @anglican74

    To get back to the original question.

    The vast vast majority were unable to keep their buildings, and most that they have were bought or built.

    Some are growing , some most certainly aren't. The continuing church I attend is steadily growing, and probably has an average age in the early 20s(mid 30s if we exclude dependents) and attracts a large portion of its members from those which were once outside the faith. There are many like that. However, there are many that are rather insular and could be better described as "awesome liturgy clubs" with valid sacraments, and they generally have a population that ages from ancient to dead and with little impetus to grow. Their growth strategy tended to be to reach out to disaffected members of progressive denominations, which has dried up over the last 30 years. Those churches shall most certainly hit the "demographic catastrophe". The churches which are growing are growing rapidly, but they are alongside the anemic. Defections to Rome and a history of egotistical bishops do not help.

    Those which left were decidedly Anglo-Catholic, it was their commitment to the sacramental order which led them to leave over WO in the first place. Most of what you describe is pretty consistent with Anglo-Catholics, and even to some extent can be found in 'evangelical' parishes in the likes of ACNA and such, and is insufficient to denote "Anglo-Papalism". I haven't seen 'kissing icons' or heard of that happening, but it is quite possible. We have had clergy go over to Eastern Orthodoxy, and so I would not be surprised if they were kissing icons in the lead up to that.
     
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  18. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a great deal of truth in the observation that the splitting off of sections and factions into 'holy huddles' is due as much to a hive mentality as much to genuine theological protest. These 'alternatively getting it more right church congregations' often gravitate around some charismatic personality, usually a bishop, who has inflexibly strong and fixed theological views who has 'decamped' from the Anglican Communion or the denomination they previously 'belonged to', because they said it had 'gone to the dogs' over some issue or other.
    .
     
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  19. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I have often found that the people in the Continuum can be their own worst enemies.
     
  20. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    It would be nice if parts of the Anglican Continuum joined the ACNA, pushing it in a far more traditional direction. However, I do like the idea of a few continuing "lifeboats" still existing in case the ACNA takes a PCA direction.