True Human Being

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by neminem, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    As to who is to say it's wrong to say ".....the copyist got it wrong"?
    -The mods on this forum! one of whom wrote to me.

    "The infraction you received was only for asserting that Scripture is wrong."



    But I generally take your point Tiffy. I'm sure Jesus's parents told him to not go off alone, but he still took off to speak in the synagogue at the age of 12.
     
  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    When I said "un-self-conscious," I meant that Adam and Eve did not have a heightened (let alone excessive) sense of self; for example, it did not bother them in the least to be naked, until they ate of that tree. They certainly were self-aware, however. I hope that clarifies my meaning.

    All of their needs and wants were met, until the serpent's lie influenced them to want more.
     
  3. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    It does not say that Ahimelech was the high priest, but merely that he was a priest. Sons of the high priest also served as priests and assisted the high priest.
    1Sa 21:1 Then came David to Nob to Ahimelech the priest: and Ahimelech was afraid at the meeting of David, and said unto him, Why art thou alone, and no man with thee?
    That is one of many possible explanations; the one you have chosen (that Jesus was mistaken) is, I think, the least likely of those many possibilities.
     
  4. neminem

    neminem Active Member

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    Thanks.
    So would it be true to say, as mentioned in #17 To be restored to a true human being, one is to unconditionally surrender self for the Truth.
     
  5. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    That statement seems to rest on a supposition that the people who came after Adam were not true human beings (barring some sort of restoration). I do not think of it that way. To my way of thinking, all humans are true human beings.
    Adam was created by God. So are we all.
    Adam was loved by God. So are we all.
    Adam sinned and fell from grace. So do we all.
    Adam became subject to toil, pain, and physical death. So are we all.

    Rather than us being "restored to a true human being," I would say that we are being restored to a state of grace and to a right relationship with the loving Creator. None of us, Adam included, have yet to receive the fullness of physical restoration (an eternal, physical body); that is still to come.

    But I agree that being restored to grace and right relationship with God involves a surrender to His Way, Truth and Life ("let go and let God" is one expression we all may have heard). If one refuses to give up the attempt to self-justify and to self-earn salvation, one cannot receive His redemptive gift of grace.
     
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  6. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    You see, that is why I was puzzled when you asked what a true human being is like. You and I, and all of us here (as far as I can tell!) are true human beings.
     
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I see your point. God became truly human, but all mankind are also sinners. God did not become a sinner, but DID become truly human. So, to be truly human therefore requires becoming sinless, (or at least being regarded by God as being counted as such, through faith in, and obedience to, Christ). It follows therefore that being truly human is the only way we shall ever get to see God. Matt.5:8, Eph.4:24, Heb.12:14.
    .
     
  8. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure I agree with the logic. Although all humans except Jesus turn out to be sinners, the sin does not define what they are (true humans). To illustrate: if 999 sponges fall into the water and become soaked, but the 1,000th sponge does not, we would not say that only dry sponges are true sponges.

    Otherwise, did Adam cease to be a true human when he sinned?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    You misconstrue my meaning. If God became truly human, then sin cannot be truly human and humans which sin are no longer truly human, as they were originally designed to be sinless by God. If sinful human beings are truly human, then God cannot have become truly human. That is basically the main proposition of Nosticism. But God did become truly human, therefore humanity is only truly human when conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, who was sinless. Unconformed humans are spiritually sub-human until regeneration takes place. This is an act of God equivalent to the creation of male and female. Unregenerate human beings are become less than truly human, "like brute beasts with no understanding", but by God's grace they can be restored, enobled and regenerated.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  10. neminem

    neminem Active Member

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    The thread has gone from what is true human being to just what is a true human.

    I think we also need to consider what we mean by 'Being'.

    Secondly, what do we mean by 'true'; are we just talking about authenticity, or having Truth expressed through our thoughts and feelings, or both. Hopefully both. If we just focus on 'authenticity' we could easily forget about our innermost being.

    If we consider the innermost being, then that could open the possibility of choosing between 'self' and 'being' as a way of life.

    Remember, God gave us the power to choose. To be or not to be 'true'. So what is true, well I am sure it is not my 'self' which is full of fear, hence, full of wants and needs. So . . . perhaps our innermost being, God's spirit, is 'true'. In that case, I would rather trust the innermost being than my 'self'.
     
  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Trusting in 'self' would be a bit selfish, surely? God, according to God's own testimony and opinion just IS. God doesn't have a 'self' to be selfish with, God is an eternal 'We'. I Am, is God's name and nature. Pure 'Being'. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, just 'being', the same yesterday, today and forever.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that your viewpoint necessarily hinges upon the concept of original sin? Or not? (I do not accept that doctrine, and this may be the centerpiece of our difference of opinion.)

    I do not accept your basic premise. Sin cannot be stated as either human or nonhuman. Sin is an act of rebellion and disobedience. Only a true human could sin, but a true human can also choose to not sin. (To illustrate: if someone held a knife to your throat every time you were tempted to sin, I'm confident that you would restrain yourself from sinning.) I maintain that a sinner is a true human being who has consciously sinned. Jesus became a true human being, but consciously kept from sinning.

    If no sinner is a true human being, then Jesus was the only true human being. Yet everyone commonly refers to homo sapiens as human beings. What are we... fake human beings? Faux humans? This does not make sense. You're making up your own vocabulary and throwing out everyone else's.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  13. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I was writing "true human" as a shorthand way of saying "true human being," because to my mind they mean the same thing. All humans are beings, thus all humans are human beings. If we started to discuss "beings" in general, we could be talking about any number different animals... but we're not referring to animals, only to humans.
     
  14. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly, there is a large Protestant movement in China known as the 'three self church.' I think they must view God as having three selves......

    Jesus had no self? He must not have been able to speak of Himself, I guess. :hmm:
     
  15. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Jesus had a 'self', but God is not Jesus, Jesus is God.
    .
     
  16. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Sin is far more than just an act of rebellion and disobedience though. Human beings sin when they do nothing at all but merely exist. Sin can be complete inactivity. In fact some of the worst sins possible are committed when we fail to do as we should.

    Sin is not merely a matter of the will. Sin is a disease of the soul. It permeates our person, pollutes our psyche and distorts our very spiritual DNA. It introduces demonic alien code into our Creators original design for 'human kind'. It is so amalgamated with what we suppose to be the human condition in each one of us, that we are almost always unconscious of its existence within us. Even on the surface of our personality others are often more aware of our faults than we are ourselves. God, and therefore Christ is totally cognisant of our fatal disease and the full extent of the infection which distorts our 'true' humanity. It was that knowledge and Christ's Grace that prompted him to pray to the Father, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

    We the 'sinful' human race were 'spiritually (genetically so to speak), predisposed', to inevitably murder God, by nailing him to a wooden cross, rather than re-evaluate and eradicate, as a race, our 'inherently sinful' nature. (something we are unable to do for ourselves, John 5:30, John 5:19, John 15:5. John 5:1-17) In agreement with you, Phil.1:14 makes it clear that a regenerate human being is capable of voluntary goodness, but an unregenerate soul is probably not able to know or do God's will willingly, only by accident, God's Grace or compulsion, hence the need for The Law.

    The unregenerate are 'infected' human beings, infected by sin and unfit therefore for the Kingdom of God or communion with Christ. They are in desperate need of healing, i.e 'Salve-ation'. See John 5:1-17. This is not only a healing miracle of Jesus, it is also a metaphor of the human condition and the impossibility of self healing in our humanly depleted spiritually cripled predicament.

    Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.” Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean.

    Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you
    . John 15:3.

    We can only be 'truly' human, after we have heard and responded to the word that Christ has spoken to us. That is regeneration. Phil.2:16.
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    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  17. neminem

    neminem Active Member

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    We may be called human beings, but not all humans follow their innermost being (a no-body). Most only follow their 'self' created identity (a some-body).

    Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    Psalms 20:27 The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one's inmost being.
     
  18. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Matt.23:12. :yes::tiphat:
     
  19. neminem

    neminem Active Member

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    True.

    So, the True Human Being knows that the Truth is for their innermost Being, and not for their 'self'. They remain humble and meek, having their cup overflowing within. They are last (on the outside) and first (on the inside). That human is living a way of truth by no longer trusting their 'self', but having absolute faith in the Truth, which their innermost Being holds. Their consciousness (which is what we are) is conscious of what is true. Their thought, feelings, and actions come from Truth and not from 'self'. When this is expressed onto their outside, they are the first (on the outside) and last (on the inside). In other words, the true human being is like Christ in spirit.

    Christ is the alpha and omega, the first and the last, at the same time.
     
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