The Jews and Elijah.

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by AnglicanAgnostic, Mar 31, 2023.

  1. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Were the Jews correct to expect Elijah to return before the appearance of the Messiah, and if so why didn't it happen?
    I believe this is one of the reasons they don't think Jesus was the Messiah.
     
  2. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    From their perspective, it hasn’t happened yet. A king of Israel must be anointed by either a priest or a prophet, and the only one still living according to the canonical texts is Elijah. He would therefore need to return in order for the installation of David’s successor to occur. Within their own framework, the belief makes sense. The question is whether that framework is true or not.
     
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  3. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    So were the Jews wrong and Elijah has really returned, was their frame work incorrect?
     
  4. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    From their point of view, the answer is “neither.” Jesus didn’t fulfill messianic prophecy according to traditional Judaism, so the coming of the Messiah (and his forerunner, Elijah) remains in the future.
     
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  5. Elmo

    Elmo Active Member

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    Malachi 4:5: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

    Christians believe John the Baptist was Eliyahu, but Jews don't believe the Messiah has come yet and nor has Eliyahu.
     
  6. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, we now know that there are two advents. The "great and awesome day of the LORD" points to the Second Advent.

    Luke 9:28-36 Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!” And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

    Rev 11:3-14 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.
     
  7. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Yes but John the Baptist wasn't Eliyahu ( I presume you are talking of Elijah) !
     
  8. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    So what are the two advents? And at what events will or has Elijah participated in? Does this list include; 30 AD ish (John the Baptist' time), the transfiguration, the second coming, or the final judgement?
     
  9. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    This could be referring to the second coming of Jesus in which case it hasn't happened yet.

    John 1
    John the Baptist Denies Being the Messiah
    19 Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20 He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”

    21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”

    He said, “I am not.”
     
  10. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Then why did Jesus say

    "But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Mat 17:12

    -------------------------------------

    In reference to Elijah appearing before the great and awesome day of the Lord. ( Mal 4:5)
    But for this to be true it means the next Biblical event to happen is the returning of Elijah! And every Christian from Sunday school pupil to Doctors of Theology will tell you the next event is the return of Jesus.
     
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  11. Elmo

    Elmo Active Member

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    Not literally no, but the Gospels attest to the fact that he was considered so as the forerunner of Jesus.

    Matt 17: 10-13,

    The disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied, “Elijah does indeed come, and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him whatever they wished. In the same way, the Son of Man will suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them about John the Baptist.
     
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  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    The First Advent: the conception and birth of Jesus the Messiah.
    The Second Advent: yet in the future, when ...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matt. 24:30). And they will mourn, :cry: because their "sin party" life is about to come to a screeching halt.
     
  13. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Quite so. Of course, one of the reasons Jews reject the explanation that the reason Jesus didn’t fulfill messianic prophecy is because those things are waiting to be fulfilled in his second advent, is the fact that there isn’t even a hint of two advents in the OT/Tanakh.
     
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  14. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Another of God's secrets then.
     
  15. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    I'll get back to you on this Elmo. Remind me if I don't.
    and
    Now Rexlion says (post#12)
    the second advent is, "when ...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matt. 24:30)". and he also says
    and Malichi says of the great and awesome day "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes."

    So this means Elijah will appear before the Son of man comes in the clouds of heaven (the second advent), and I for one will have a warning the second coming is imminent. I suspect it would be very hard, almost impossible to find an authorative figure that says Elijah will appear before the "clouds of heaven" event. Perhaps I am wrong and you can provide me with one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2023
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  16. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    For me, the Book of Malachi is authoritative. (So is the rest of the Bible.)

    If Elijah should come in your lifetime (which is a fair possibility IMO, but none of us can know), I hope you will recognize him for who he is, and believe.
     
  17. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Well if this happens, your wish could well come true.
    But you seem to be acknowledging that Elijah could return soon and this should "buck up" my ideas. For this to happened presumable Jesus hasn't previously appeared or my ideas would already have been "buck uped", so are you saying Elijah's return will precede that of Jesus. In other words is Elijah's return the next biblical event to occur.
     
  18. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    IMO the next Biblical event will be the rise to the fore of an individual who attempts to become leader of the entire planet, with the 'moral support' of a prominent religious figure (these would be the two "beasts" of Rev. 13... Revelation is not entirely chronological). It seems likely that the two witnesses will be killed at the order of the beast.
     
  19. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    The problem now is that the Jewish prophecies are at the point that they can no longer be fulfilled. Setting aside for the moment the fact that the most explicit messianic ‘prophecies’ appear to be descriptors of Solomon employing royal hyperbole, the simple fact is that there is no way to trace specific lines of descent from Solomon today. In his own lifetime, Jesus, as a follower of John the Baptist, expected the Romans to destroy the Temple and then for the Son of Man to appear from heaven to judge the Romans and those who collaborated with them, and then (perhaps) for Jesus to be installed as the rightful king. It was the post-resurrection conviction that Jesus was the messiah that led some Christians to read a prophetic understanding of the role of Elijah back into accounts concerning John the Baptist. But, it is not something that can now be considered as remaining in the future. It is the Church that embodies Jesus and his teaching now and in the future.
     
  20. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I should add that most Anglicans have been taught to disregard the truths contained in Revelation. This is due to the seminaries having been polluted by religious liberals in the 1800s and 1900s. Thus most of the rectors have been given the idea that most of Revelation was fulfilled long ago somehow, either by 70 AD or by the 300s-400s AD. They therefore discard the plain sense and meaning of those passages which are otherwise readily understandable as detailed descriptors of events yet to come. But different camps of thought assign radically different meanings to the same passages in their attempt to read them as "anything but what they really say." For example, the two witnesses are regarded by one camp as representing the Church itself, and by another camp as symbolizing and personifying government and religion in general. Yet the text clearly tells us details that really don't make sense unless they apply to two actual persons (individuals) through through whom the power of God will be displayed, and we know of no such persons who have yet lived, so the literalist reader logically concludes that these two individuals are yet to come.

    There are Christians, and then there are actual Bible-believing Christians. :yes: I think, @AnglicanAgnostic , that you are able to distinguish the two types from what you've read on this forum over the years, right? ;)