The Homilies

Discussion in 'Court of High Commission' started by AnglicanAgnostic, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Is it necessary to assent to the Homilies( amongst other things) to qualify for the Anglican Badge on this forum, and if so can someone post a link to them so we can see what they are?
     
  2. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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  3. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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    It is simply necessary to assent to the oath as written. The wording of the oath was not constructed by us, but was actually historically administered for centuries to all incoming clergy, as the standard formulation of Anglican orthodoxy.

    Regardless of whether the Homilies are directly sworn to or not, they are a classic collection of fundamental teachings, of great benefit to the body of Christ, and of value in perusing. Eventually we will have them all up here, but all of the recent volunteers have fallen through in typing them up for us.
     
  4. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    So when the orthodoxy section of the forum says;

    "The road to recovery, as laid out by our Fathers and Divines, is in doctrinal and creedal orthodoxy — abolition of all self-will and self-pride, personal theories and private theologies, in a joyous submission to the Creeds and Formularies of the Church:

    • Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Athanasian Creed,
    • Articles of Religion, 1662 Prayerbook, Church Catechism, and Homilies"
    and the oath says;

    "and consent to all, and every thing contained, and prescribed in, and by the Book intituled, The Book of Common Prayer and Administration of the Sacraments, and other Rites, and Ceremonies of the Church, "

    Does this not include the Homilies as it seems to be in a list with other "approved " writings and to be prescibed in and by the BoCP, especially when you consider Article XXXV

    "The second Book of Homilies, the several titles whereof we have joined under this Article, doth contain a godly and wholesome Doctrine, and necessary for these times, as doth the former Book of Homilies, which were set forth in the time of Edward the Sixth..."?


     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  5. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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    The narrow interpretation of article XXXV is that it is correct that the Homilies do contain godly and wholesome doctrine. You are being asked to subscribe to article XXXV and its statement about the Homilies; not the Homilies themselves. That doesn't mean that I think there is anything wrong in the Homilies, but I am also aware that they were not used as the jot and tittle of subscription in the same manner that the Articles and the whole BCP have been. Thus to stay within the traditional bounds, you are only asked to subscribe to article XXXV, and no further.
     
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  6. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Maybe these narrow interpretations concerns, and jott and tittle concerns are what is really needed and may be why Charles I had to write and it's in the BoCP "And that no man hereafter shall either print, or preach, to draw the Article aside any way, but shall submit to it in the plain and full meaning thereof: and shall not put his own sense or comment to be the meaning of the Article, but shall take it in the literal and grammatical sense."

    The title intro for Anglican Orthodoxy says "Promulgation of classical orthodoxy on Anglican Forums, " and then says

    "in a joyous submission to the Creeds and Formularies of the Church:

    • Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Athanasian Creed,
    • Articles of Religion, 1662 Prayerbook, Church Catechism, and Homilies."

    Are we meant to joyfully submit to the other creeds and Formularies but not the Homilies one? In fact why are the Homilies even mentioned in the Anglican Orthodoxy sub forum?

    You seem to imply that it is just Article XXXV that should be assented to and not the Homilies, but let's look at Article XXXV.
    It says
    "this Article, doth contain a godly and wholesome Doctrine, and necessary for these times, as doth the former Book of Homilies"
    So this information is necessary ( a word you have used before) in these times, and these times must still exist because I assume they(the Homilies) are still judged to be read in church.

    Now lets have a look at the oath people are asked to accent to, let me print it out with comments.


    I, A.B., Do here declare my unfeigned assent, and consent to all, and every thing contained, and prescribed (which means,state authoritatively or as a rule that (an action or procedure) should be carried out) in, and by the Book intituled, The Book of Common Prayer and Administration of the Sacraments, and other Rites, and Ceremonies of the Church, according to the use of the Church of England, together with the Psalter, or Psalms of David, Pointed as they are to be sung, or said in Churches; and the form, or manner of making, ordaining, and consecrating of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.

    The Homilies are prescribed in the BoCP through article XXXV and the assent in the oath is to be given to all thing prescribed to be sung or read from the BoCP or other rites and ceremonies of the church.

    What, if you are correct, is the point of article XXXV if it means you must assent to an article but not to what it refers to?
     
  7. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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    The point of it, as read historically, is that you can find good and wholesome doctrine in the Homilies. The jot and tittle of Article XXXV does not require a jot and tittle of the Homilies. As long as you can affirm that they do contain good and wholesome doctrine, Article XXXV is satisfied.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  8. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Active Member Anglican

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    Shame, I was hoping to weaponize the two homilies that refer to the book of Wisdom as the "word of God" against all the low-churchmen who want to throw out the apocrypha ;)
     
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  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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  10. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    So why are the Homilies mentioned in the Community pages under Anglican Orthodoxy with the heading
    "Promulgation of classical orthodoxy on Anglican Forums, and the Subscription of members." ?
     
  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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    Because they do contain "a godly & wholesome Doctrine."
     
  12. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    A word to the wise; check out Article VI.
     
  13. Rexlion

    Rexlion Active Member

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    :laugh:
     
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  14. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    In the oath which says

    "and consent to all, and every thing contained, and prescribed in, and by the Book intituled, The Book of Common Prayer and Administration of the Sacraments, and other Rites, and Ceremonies of the Church, "

    What do people think "prescribed in, and by" means? It can't mean it's included in the BoCP as this would come under the "contained" wording in the oath.


















     
  15. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Active Member Anglican

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    It's probably parallelism, using two terms to clarify each other. For example, I'm not only supposed to adhere to the Prayer Book liturgy, but also to do it, if those two things could ever be separated in the first place.
     
  16. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Well only Fr. Brench answered my question
    "What do people think "prescribed in, and by" means? It can't mean it's included in the BoCP as this would come under the "contained" wording in the oath."

    So I thought I would ask Noel Cox an Anglican priest here in NZ .
    As well as being an Anglican priest he is also

    barrister and researcher specialising in constitutional law and ecclesiastical law

    LLB University of Auckland (1988)

    LLM University of Auckland (1995)

    MTheol University of Auckland (2008)

    MA Archbishop of Canterbury’s Examination (2005)

    PhD University of Auckland (2001)

    LTh University of Wales Lampeter (2007)

    GradDipTertTchg Auckland University of Technology (2003)

    AAMINZ (2016)

    FRHistS (2004)



    Note the MA from the Archbishop of Canterbury. Yes the Archbishop of Canterbury like Universities can issue degrees and Doctorates under the Ecclesiastical Licences Act of 1533. These are substantive degrees and Doctorates and not honourary ones. If you have one of these doctorates you may call yourself Doctor unlike an honourary doctorate.

    But I digress I asked Noel

    "Hello Noel. I had your name written down from the "All experts" time. I was wondering if you could help me.
    If one assents to the oath in the 1662 Act of conformity, I'm sure you know it but here it is again,

    I, A.B., Do here declare my unfeigned assent, and consent to all, and every thing contained, and prescribed in, and by the Book intituled, The Book of Common Prayer and Administration of the Sacraments, and other Rites, and Ceremonies of the Church, according to the use of the Church of England, together with the Psalter, or Psalms of David, Pointed as they are to be sung, or said in Churches; and the form, or manner of making, ordaining, and consecrating of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.

    are you also assenting to the contents of the Homilies, or just that the Homilies are worthy to be read.

    How is this matter interpreted in the light of the oath and also Article XXXV ?

    Thank you very much Phil ......."



    Now for the bad news with all those letters after his name you think he would agree with me :facepalm: but no he replied.

    "Hello Phil,

    Thank you for your message and apologies for not replying sooner.

    The 1662 Act of Uniformity (still in England and Wales at least) requires assent to the contents of the 39 Articles of Religion. The 35th of the 39 Articles of Religion suggest clergy should read aloud the Book of Homilies, but it is not explicit. The wording isn't clear that all have to be read - and in practice I doubt that this was ever done. I would suspect no clergy today would imagine for a moment that they were obliged to read any or all of the Book of Homilies of 1547/1562/1571.

    kind regards,

    Noel Cox"

    Here endeth the lesson.






     
  17. Rexlion

    Rexlion Active Member

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    I see the phrase "and Homilies" as shorthand for saying "and the sound doctrines contained within the Homilies". Homilies in and of themselves do not commonly attain the same level as other doctrinal writings which have been carefully thought out, discussed, refined, and promulgated.

    "in a joyous submission to the Creeds and Formularies of the Church:
    • Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Athanasian Creed,
    • Articles of Religion, 1662 Prayerbook, Church Catechism, and Homilies."
     
  18. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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    Thank you, a fairly common view, even in traditionalist Anglican circles. It is interesting that we actually articulate a higher view of the Homilies than that. I would never be seen as expressing doubts of the Homilies having been ever read. Indeed they were read and preached from, and have been a salutary help in suppressing the schismatic forces among the English nonconformists. They contain a tremendous and titanic amount of patristic and scriptural scholarship, worthy to be celebrated and learned from.

    In just the same way that we do not hold the Deuterocanonical Books to be inscribed by the hand of God, nevertheless they are still the Ecclesiastical Books of Scripture, and although not for doctrine, but for morals and many other purposes are very much to be celebrated and frequently read.

    Think of the Homilies as our Deuterocanonical books; not on the same level as the Formularies, yet under no circumstances to be stopped from being used, or forgotten.
     
  19. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Yes I had gathered that it what you were getting at, it's just that in reference to the Deuterocanonical books I can read this statement.
    "And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following: " (article VI) and it then goes on to mention the various books. But I can't find a corresponding reference to the Homilies.

    Any thoughts on my Louis XVI issue?






    I see "and Homilies" as just being gramatical. Something in a list has to come last. The line could have been written "
    • Articles of Religion, Homilies, 1662 Prayerbook, and Church Catechism."

     

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