The Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by Rexlion, Aug 29, 2021.

  1. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    I think you are confuse.
     
  2. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I struggle with this a little.

    Isaiah 34:16
    Seek and read from the book of the Lord: Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without its mate.
    For the mouth of the Lord has commanded, and his spirit has gathered them.

    If I take the meaning of this passage in it's context, it is a prophecy (a touch apocalyptic) against Edom, and the reference to the mate refers to the pending desolation of Edom, left to be inhabited by the hedehog, the hawke, the owl, the raven, jackles, ostriches, hyenas, goat-demons and buzzards.

    Daniel 9:2
    in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to the prophet Jeremiah, must be fulfilled for the devastation of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

    Daniel of course is notably apoclyptic, and this prophecy here is in relation to the forthcoming exhile into Babylon.

    On this basis it seems you conclude, in boldface, that What matters and prevails is the Word of God, the Word is God, yeah, the Word is God. Firstly it does not seem immediately apparent how that could be the conclusion of the passages you have quoted. Second of course is the placing of The Word of God alongside the Johannine claim The Word is God, in a way that suggests these terms are immediately interchangeable. As for the people who wrote the Old and New Testament Documents, their use of the term The Word of God most likely refers to the Torah, or to the messages delivered from God either by the Spirit or by an Angel. In Greek, they had the advantage of being able to use the terms graphos when referring to writing and logos when referring to the second person of the Holy Trinity. Christians have, especially in the last few hundred years tended to use the term 'The Word of God' to refer to Holy Scripture, and of course, the Logos in John has been translated as 'The Word'. The one thing that we need to avoid here is some sort of confusion that equates logos and graphos simply because English does not have a big enough lexicon. The Bible and Jesus are not one and the same, and Jphn;s meaning is not that the bible became flesh.

    Revelation 1:1
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

    The nature and purpose of the Revelation of St John the Divine, is strictly and strongly within the apocalytic tradition, most notablly to encourage perseverance in hard times, seemingly with a message that things are going to get harder, however in the end, God wil triumph and restore the fortune of those who are faitful and consistent. ​

    The old tradition was that you needed two witnesses, which for the Scribes and the Pharisees meant that needed to provide support from the Law and the Prophets. Sadly you have presented three passages to support your argument all from the apocalyptic tradition. Many Christians would see this as a red flag, given that there has been a long list of people who seem to lose sight of much and can get lost here. I have, and do, strongly argue for the importance of the apocalyptic tradition, understood and expressed within the context of the whole canon of scripture.

    Apocalyptic writing was normally dangerous writing, written in dangerous times, and often makes use of metaphors and images that we may not understand today in the way they were written for the intended audience of the day. Often apocalyptic is hiding a level of meaning, and you need to be very careful in unpacking it. Hence you get a term like "he who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the church"
     
  3. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. But you are welcome to think what you wish.
     
  4. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God
    .

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...
    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    Joh 1:15 John (the Baptist) bore witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spoke, He that comes after me is preferred before me: for he was before me
    .

    The Word of God is Jesus, the One who became flesh & blood and who physically lived among the people; He is the One whom John the Baptist heralded. We do know His name: Jesus. We know this because Revelation 19:13 tells us that the person on the white horse is "the Word of God," and John 1 tells us that "the Word of God" is Jesus. He "had a name written, that no man knew".... the word "knew" is past tense, meaning at times past (before His incarnation) no one knew the name of Jesus. It does not say no man knows his name (present tense at the time of the writing, but rather, no man "knew" His name at some time in an unspecified past.

    Some advice:
    2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
    2Ti 2:16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness
    ...
     
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  5. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I'm increasingly becoming convinced we are being addressed by a malfunctioning computer stuck in a heresy subroutine, not ever reaching a RET statement, so cannot return to the main program.
    :laugh: :biglaugh: :deadhorse: :wallbash: :confused: :disgust:
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2022
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  6. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Prov.26:4-5.
     
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Read and Learn:

    Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself. He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

    Then the high priest Simon, facing the sanctuary, bending his knees and extending his hands with calm dignity, prayed as follows: "Lord, Lord, king of the heavens, and sovereign of all creation, holy among the holy ones, the only ruler, almighty, give attention to us who are suffering grievously from an impious and profane man, puffed up in his audacity and power. For you, the creator of all things and the governor of all, are a just Ruler, and you judge those who have done anything in insolence and arrogance. You destroyed those who in the past committed injustice, among whom were even giants who trusted in their strength and boldness, whom you destroyed by bringing upon them a boundless flood. You consumed with fire and sulphur the men of Sodom who acted arrogantly, who were notorious for their vices; and you made them an example to those who should come afterward. You made known your mighty power by inflicting many and varied punishments on the audacious Pharaoh who had enslaved your holy people Israel. And when he pursued them with chariots and a mass of troops, you overwhelmed him in the depths of the sea, but carried through safely those who had put their confidence in you, the Ruler over the whole creation. And when they had seen works of your hands, they praised you, the Almighty. You, O King, when you had created the boundless and immeasurable earth, chose this city and sanctified this place for your name, though you have no need of anything; and when you had glorified it by your magnificent manifestation, you made it a firm foundation for the glory of your great and honoured name. And because you love the house of Israel, you promised that if we should have reverses, and tribulation should overtake us, you would listen to our petition when we come to this place and pray. And indeed you are faithful and true. Maccabees 2:1-2 and 8-10.

    It's pretty obvious that the author of the Revelation passage had also been reading the Maccabees 1-10 passage and was tacitly referring his readers to it. The rider on the white horse represents God, The Almighty, but ALSO represents Jesus Christ, The Word of God. Who else could be King of Kings and Lord of Lords? The sharp sword from his mouth is mentioned elsewhere in Revelation and is attributed to Christ also.
    .

     
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  8. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    As you know, the book of the LORD is very deep spiritually speaking, something like an enigmatic letter. I like to decipher biblical enigmas.
    As it is written, "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him. But GOD has revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of GOD" -1Corinthians 2:v.9-10.

    Isaiah 34:16 - Seek and read from the book of the Lord: Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without its mate.
    For the MOUTH of the Lord has commanded, and His spirit has gathered them. Note: - GOD's mouth spoke (by whom?), and the prophet Isaiah wrote, and the book of the Lord has recorded and it is a faithful witness of what God has spoken through the prophet -

    Daniel 9:2 - in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to the prophet Jeremiah, must be fulfilled for the devastation of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. NOTE: Daniel said "books", written in plural: why? Well, the other book besides of Jeremiah is the book of Isaiah speaking by ALEGORY in Isaiah 23:v.15 to 17 - (as Paul Apostle says in Galatians 4:v.22-26-Check it).

    Yes, "Daniel is notably apocalyptic', everything Daniel wrote was from a celestial source, I mean from GOD, and it fulfills itself LITERALLY until this current time, our apocaliptic days.
    But I didn't understanding what you meant saying "the prophecy (of Daniel) is in relation to the forthcoming exhile into Babylon". What is the other or the next exhile are you referring according Scriptures?
    Edom means red and today the "apocalyptic touch" refers to the red Dragon and the battle against him and his monstrous and religious estructures having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads, and a terrible TAIL, whose structures are his current body as a whole and, by alegory, are spiritually his church ruled and guided by MAN Beast of sea having 7 heads and 10 horns, and upon his 10 horns ten crowns, and upon his 7 heads the name of blasphemy -Vicarivs Filii Dei- . The battle was prophesied in Revelation 16:v.13 to 16.
    See that you also, in your understanding, agree and believe in the book of the Lord, the Bible, that the Word is GOD. This biblical assertion is of the Holy Spirit, the third among the Three, and he revealed to John the Apostle the Word is GOD.

    1John 5:v.7 - There are three that bear record in heaven (heaven is not the physical space of Universe, but celestial plasce in Christ JESUS-Ephesians 1:v.3, Philippians 3:v.20-21, among other references), the Father -GOD the Father- , the Word -the Word made flesh-JESUS- , and the Holy Spirit -John 16:v.7-15- : and these three are One. NOTE: - Three distincts Persons, these Three are One, but GOD the Father is greater than JESUS as He said-John 14:v.28, and JESUS is greater than the person of the Holy Spirit -John 16:v.7-15.

    John 1:v.1-3
    v. 1 - In the beginning -in JESUS- was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was (and is) GOD - great mystery - this never change. The Word is not only and only letters of Scriptures, the Word is GOD, yeah, the Word is GOD.
    2 - The same -the Word- was in the beginning -was in JESUS- with GOD -i.e. in the bosom of GOD- the Word - Both are One -.
    v.3 - All things were made by Him -were made by JESUS- the Word made flesh- ; and without Him -i.e. without JESUS- was not any thing made that was made. - And GOD said: Let there be light, and was light - JESUS is the Greater Light -

    Hebrews 1:1-3
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the (MOUTH of the)prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; (What is the next world? Luke 20:v.35-36 reveals for us . Check it.)

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:



     
  9. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    What did Jesus mean? In what way was the Father greater than the Son?

    The Athanasian Creed states in part:
    Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.
    And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other;
    but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.
    Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.
    The Athanasian Creed was formulated to combat the heresy of Arianism. Arians taught that Jesus was less than the Father and that Jesus was a created being. Arians were not Trinitarians. The Arians didn't properly interpret John 14:28, obviously.

    How should we understand that verse? We know that the Son humbled Himself, taking human form and suffering death on a cross. We know that He freely came to serve the Father and to serve us all. With respect to His nature and divinity, the three Persons of the Trinity are coequal and coeternal. But with respect to Jesus' office and role as the servant, the 'sent one,' He voluntarily placed Himself 'below' the position of the Father as His superior. The Father fulfills the role of the sender and the origin of redemptive grace, while the Son fulfilled the role of a sent one and the conduit of redemption, and the Holy Spirit now fulfills the role of sent one, comforter, and communicator about redemption. Yet the Father is not in divine nature greater than, nor different from, nor separate from, either the Son or the Holy Spirit, any more than the three are separate Beings. For Jesus also said, "I and the Father are one."
     
  10. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    This verse is not part of the Bible.
     
  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Now we are no longer paddling in the river of God. We are being carried along in the current in full spate.

    The Father, I postulate, was greater than the Son only in the fact that The Son voluntarily humbled himself to become incarnate and live and die as a man. In order to do that God had to lay his divinity aside and accept the constraints of mortality, though having been made human, God did not abandon his divinity but brought his God-ness into humanity and resided by nature in Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the incarnate God. Therefore Jesus of Nazareth could say "If you have seen me, you have seen The Father. After death and resurrection Christ was no longer humbled, he was exulted and glorified and once again a single trinity of persons, for truly God is ONE and not THREE for the THREE in ONE is not in any way, separate. Language simply cannot express this truth concerning God but that is the fault and inadequacy of language and logic and their inability to be used to describe the unfathomable indescribable, which is God.

    That's how I see it, but I may be wrong.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    KJV:
    1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    Not that I want to get into the whole ball of yarn about versions and manuscripts and all that, but KJV is a Bible, after all, so it's in some Bibles.
     
  13. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I stand by my original statement.
     
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  14. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I have come to feel in recent years that it's more accurate to say: Jesus voluntarily forbore the exercise of certain divine traits except when told by the Father to exercise them. When one starts speaking of "laying aside divinity," it opens a big, smelly can of worms theologically.
     
  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you have a seat and relax? :laugh: Standing can be hard on the legs! :cheers:
     
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  16. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    You’re right about that! :laugh:
     
  17. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    I all my posts I have said JESUS is the Word made flesh, because I work with the Word of GOD. What I received of the Lord, this I testify, I always confirm literally what is written because the Word is GOD. GOD is the Truth. GOD is Spirit, the invisible GOD. But you can see Him in JESUS, in the beginning-in JESUS was the Word-the Word is GOD. THE WORD IS GOD. GREAT MYSTERY. | Pure Bible Forum (and see www.sinaiticus.net )

    On the other hand, I MUST confirm what you said, i.e. "John 1 tells us that "the Word of God is Jesus", but He is the Word -GOD - made flesh. What does the Word of GOD say? "We know that the Son of GOD is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life. 1John 5:v.20

    But I MUST NOT confirm you saying that "Revelation 19:13 tells us that the person on the white horse is "JESUS, the Word of God,", no, the white horse rider , who in righteousness he does Judge and make WAR, he is not JESUS, no, he is not. Sorry, you are trying to adapt Scriptures to your opinion, not revelation, and omit other details for convenience. What does the Word of GOD say, I mean the book of Revelation? By the way, Revelation was written around year 95AD, and the NAME of JESUS was known in the whole world - but the NAME of the white horse rider NO MAN KNEW, ONLY HE HIMSELF KNEW (AND KNOW) HIS NAME. Therefore, you know not his name, to say the contrary is because you belive not in the Word of GOD.
    Paul preached the Gospel of the Lord JESUS even in Spain, yeah, the NAME of JESUS was known in whole world when Revelation was announced to John in Patmos in the year 95AD, and is until today in whole world. The NAME of JESUS has nothing to do with Revelation 19:v.13 (before His incarnation), the Truth is that no MAN knew the name of the rider who does Judge and makes war, but he himself. This is what the Word of GOD say, belive in the GOD's Word.

    Rev. 19:v.13 ...: and his NAME is called The Word of God. Before us he has an unknown NAME which only he himself knows, before us his NAME is the Word of GOD, but Scripture is not saying he is the Word, but NAMED or called The Word of GOD.
     
  18. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Oh, please, don't you read Revelation 1:v.1 ? - 1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: - GOD did not give the book of Maccabees to JESUS sent to John to read in Patmos. And JESUS sent his angel to speak with John face to face, in fact un archangel, and it is he who revealed the message of Apocalypse to John, and instructed him to write it.
     
  19. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    What JESUS said is LITERALLY true. What Athanasian Creed states is fake. Certainly he did not believe in JESUS. His theory is fake.
    By the way, as my Lord JESUS said, - no man knoweth (Him) the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save (He) the Son, and he TO WHOMSOEVER the Son will reveal Him.
     
  20. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Oseas said:
    1John 5:v.7 - There are three that bear record in heaven...

    It's hard to believe you said that 1John 5:v.7 - There are three that bear record in heaven...

    is not part of the Bible. What you said is not true, of course. Be careful.