The Charismatic Episcopal Church (CEC)

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by historyb, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I am not.
     
  2. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Please do not use derogatory language. Posts removed.
     
  3. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    Kind of, yes I think so
     
  4. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Member

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    Is there a relationship between CEC and ACNA? I just found out that the priest I knew who was once CEC is now ACNA. It looks as if he may have taken his entire congregation with him. I understand conservative Anglicans not wanting to be part of TEC, but I don't understand motivation to move from CEC to ACNA. Any clues?
     
  5. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    Not as far as I know

    Haven't a clue. Maybe he did not like the Charismatic part, maybe something else. Could be they don't like the 1979 prayer book and the fact that we see the thirty nine articles as a guide not hard and fast rules seems looking at the ACNA they use an older prayer book and view the 39 articles as hard and fast rules. Ultimately you would have to ask him though :)
     
  6. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    The Archbishop of Canterbury is charismatic:

    “As well as receiving divine intervention from believers the clergyman also said he prays 'in tongues' daily, meaning he speaks unknown languages as part of a spiritual experience.

    Speaking to Christian radio website Premier Justin Welby, the most senior clergyman in the Church of England, said he reads letters sent to him daily from people who feel God has given them a message to pass onto the archbishop.

    Christian theology says some believers enjoy 'words of knowledge', a gift allowing them to under-stand the true meaning of the Bible and know of God's plans.

    Some of the prophecies he has been sent appear to have merit said the archbishop.

    Worshipping in tongues is most closely associated with Pentecostal churches and some 'charasmatic' evangelical congregations.

    When he was younger Justin Welby was associated with Holy Trinity Brompton, a leading evangelical church in west London.

    Charismatic evangelical worship can include people speaking in tongues and displaying other signs of 'possession' by the Holy Spirit such as falling over or swaying.

    Many traditional Anglicans worry the practise can put off non-Christians or wavering members of the flock.

    It is not the only split within the Church as many traditional elements are also concerned about the archbishop's direction on gay and transgender rights.

    When asked if the Church of England could split over the issue, he said that he was not sure if different elements of the church would hold together.

    However the Most Revd Welby said he hoped the Anglican church would remain as one and find a way to disagree while staying 'within one body'.

    According to the Bible Christians should be united within one church, the archbishop told Premier.

    He said: 'My job is to pray for the unity of the church, to seek to help people to find a way to disagree well within one body and to focus on the two things we're called to do: worship God in Jesus Christ and proclaim the gospel in deed and word.'” (The Daily Mail UK).
     
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Any church or denomination of a church, or individual which or who is NOT charismatic, is not the church of Jesus Christ.

    Anglicans believe themselves to be members of 'The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church'. That Church IS charismatic. To claim it is not 'charismatic', (i.e in possession of Divinely inspired Gifts), would involve denial of the fact that Salvation itself is a 'Gift of God'. We are all 'Gifted' severally by Christ and were it not so we could not minister to others because we would have nothing whatever to offer them or assist them WITH. Without Christ AND the Holy Spirit, we can do NOTHING. John 15:5, John 15:26.

    We cannot even testify of Christ without the Holy Spirit and the Gifts we have received since baptism into Christ's church.

    The issue is how each individual 'member' of the body of christ should conduct themselves in public worship and hold to the doctrine of the faith.

    I have never once attended an Anglican church where the (priest / vicar / president / celebrant), whatever the particular tradition within the Anglican communion calls their representative at the Eucharist, has not said or intoned the prayer of consecration WITHOUT presenting the palms of their hands upward on outstreached arms, in token of an attitude of open and unfegned honesty and humility before Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Any suggestion that such a posture of humility should be discouraged in every other member of the body who will receive the sacrament being consecrated, would be the grocest hypocricy and expression of ecclesiastical elitism.

    Such a posture is rightly regarded as optional, neither forbidden nor mandatory.
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  8. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    I think the word Charismatic is the issue. Most churches believe in the Charisma at Pentacost (Acts 2), the issue is whither you believe the Charisma and Gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-11) are for the present day or passed away with the apostles.

    Charismatics today generally are Christians who believe the Gifts of the Spirit and Power of the Holy Spirit is active in all believers.
     
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    So is the entire Bible believing Anglican church I think. I see no evidence from scripture that the gifts of The Spirit were restricted only to the Apostolic era. The notion is therefore extra Biblical and therefore unacceptable in Reformed Theology. The Anglican Church is Reformed, therefore Charismatic and all the gifts of the Spirit promised in scripture are still severally distributed among it. The fact that these gifts are often not recognised and employed, even by those who have them, is another matter altogether and scripture has foreseen the possibility that such a situation is indeed possible. 1 Tim.4:14, 2 Tim.1:6, 1 Pet.4:10, 1 Cor.1:7,

    Are we to assume that 1 Cor.1:7 no longer applied after the death of the Apostles? Can such a clear endorsement of 'gifts' be negated, merely because so few people today heed the advice given to Timothy and indirectly through the scripture also to them, as Christ's Disciples?

    No wonder we have a largely ineffective church.
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  10. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    I concur, there is no evidence the gifts of the Spirit have been isolated to the Apostolic Age. In point of fact, the Apostle Paul says, “My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,” (1 Corinthians 2:4). The evagelion was not preached simply with words, but with the enpowerment of the Spirit. For did not Christ say?, “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship Him in the Spirit and in Truth.” (John 4:24).

    The Early Church emphasized the Charisma:
    While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples
    2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
    3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied.
    4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
    5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
    7 There were about twelve men in all.“ (Acts 19:1-7).

    The Apostle Paul even said this is how a service ahould be conducted:

    “What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.
    27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
    28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
    29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
    30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
    31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
    32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
    33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.“ (1 Corinthians 14:24-33)
     
  11. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Of course we have the Holy Spirit, who is at work in the life of the Church and in the lives of believers. That being said, I am a cessationist regarding the apostolic miracles that we see so often in the New Testament. Aside from the proverbial "I heard about something that happened in a jungle village," these gifts have passed away. The bishops are considered the successors to the apostles. Show me a bishop today who can raise the dead, restore the sight of the blind, or heal a leper. Even the Pope can't do those things, and no Pope ever has. I believe such gifts belonged to the apostles and passed away with them.
     
  12. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    I am Continuationist: “Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called "sign gifts", such as tonguesand prophecy. Continuationism is the opposite of cessationism.” (Wikipedia).

    May I ask what Cessationliats do with these verses?:

    “In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.” Acts 2:17)

    “And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." (Mark 16:17-18)

    “So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” (1 Corinthians 14:39)

    “Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.” (1 Corinthians 14:1)

    “Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.” (1 Corinrhans 14:22)

    “But if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all,” (1 Corinthians 14:24)

    I believe True cessationalism will happen when Jesus comes on the clouds:

    “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.” (1 Corinthinana 13:8-10),
    Jesus is the Perfect:

    “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founderof their salvation perfect through suffering.” (Jebrews 2:9-10)

    “And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,” (Hebrews 5:9)

    When Christ Returns we will hVe no need of the Gifts because we will be with Him and the Father and Holy Spirit om the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21 and 22).

    The Archbishop of Canterbury is Continuationalist:

    “As well as receiving divine intervention from believers the clergyman also said he prays 'in tongues' daily, meaning he speaks unknown languages as part of a spiritual experience.

    Speaking to Christian radio website Premier Justin Welby, the most senior clergyman in the Church of England, said he reads letters sent to him daily from people who feel God has given them a message to pass onto the archbishop.

    The Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby has said that as well as receiving divine intervention from believers he also prays 'in tongues' daily, meaning he speaks unknown languages.

    Christian theology says some believers enjoy 'words of knowledge', a gift allowing them to under-stand the true meaning of the Bible and know of God's plans.” (Tje Daily Mail UK).
     
  13. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    I would be interested in knowing if anyone has ever heard a translation of glossolalia in a church. The one time I heard speaking in tongues is when my brother in Law took me to an Assembly of God meeting. There was no translation, so being me I asked in a slightly too loud voice "why don't they give a translation as 1 Corininthians 14 says they should.
     
  14. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Hello Fidei Defensor.

    I could ask similar questions regarding verses such as "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things" (John 14:26), or "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth." (John 16:13).

    If this were the case today, why all of the denominations and doctrinal divisions? Obviously the Spirit is not guiding all believers in certain areas, otherwise they would all be on the same page.

    I am simply a realist. I read the Scriptures, but where they diverge from what we experience in the present, then we can see that certain gifts have passed away. Speaking in tongues is one thing, but where are the miraculous healings? Anecdotal in most cases, or open to other explanations. Let's see a bishop, particularly the Bishop Of Rome or Constantinople, heal a lame man. Won't happen, because they can't.

    One of the legs of the Anglican stool is reason; we have to face facts and deal with them accordingly. What we see the apostles doing in the Acts of the Apostles no longer happens today.

    I am not a fan as such of the Gospel Coalition, but this is a reasonable argument against Continuationism:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/cessationist/