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People have been trying to pummel others with old testament scripture for a long time. It is distressing to see this continue. It is offensive whenever it happens. It might be ludicrous if it weren't so offensive.

 

offensive. you really like to use that word OG.

 

Maybe you should leave the 'god' created by modernist, hedonistic, cultural relativists and seek the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. No one is born homosexual, bisexual -- or heterosexual, for that matter.

 

Yes, equally sinners, from which sin we must all repent.

You have been deluded by modernist propaganda. No one is born homosexual, just as no one is born an alcoholic. You may have a predisposition, for a variety of reasons, but homosexual acts are a choice. Scripture condemns homosexual behavior, science does not support homosexuals as "born that way", and every religion condemns it except apostate modernist "Christianity".

 

You have been deluded by biblical literalism. Sexuality is part of being human, and is indeed part of human beings from birth. When Christians tell anyone that homosexuality is a choice, the correct question to ask them is when did they realize they were heterosexual. They will tell you that the bible condemns homosexuality, and they will quote Leviticus and St Paul to support their hatred and homophobia. They may also represent science as supporting their views. Science does not answer this question. Science tells us right now that sexuality is both biological and environmental influences. The same approaches used to attack the diverse group of sexually different people were used by racists and slavery supporters in the past. The bible also supports slavery.

Further, when people dispute the homophobia, they invariably try to tell those who disagree with them what they believe and support. Painting anyone who disagrees with them into an extreme corner of argument. What is truly required of Christians is less stridency and less quickness to judge, and more love. Which is what Jesus taught.

 

"Science tells us right now..." And Here's the thing, I'm in my thirties, and in my lifetime science has gone from identifying homosexuality as a form of sexual deviance, to a valid lifestyle choice, to a congenital sexual orienation with no choice involved, to--how did you put it--the result of "both biological and environmental influences". What will it be next?

The church has been consistent in its witness for 2000 years. Sodomy is a sexual immorality, an abomination, and should be fled from.

Truth is the same today, tomorrow and yesterday. It does not change. Science is rewritten everytime some grad student needs to write a dissertation. That's not the garden from which truth grows.

Also, would you please stop villifying anyone who disagrees with you and supports traditional, biblical sexual morality as a homophobe. I neither fear nor hate homosexuals, I love them as I do all people and sincerely want them to flee the wrath to come. The only sin that is unforgivable is the one that isn't repented of. That's why it is imperative that the church be clear in its witness on this subject at a time when modern society is so lost.

 

I don't think you know how science works. it is self-correcting. Hypotheses are posed and data is collected. With sexuality it has been shown that it is not a mental illness, though the hypothesis previously that it was had support, it was overturned by new data.

Just like the catastrophism of young earth creationism was the supported scientific theory until James Hutton proposed the theory of uniformitarianism and 'deep time'. Followed by Darwin and evolution. Both theories account for the data and observation better, so the creationisn hypothesis was rejected. So to was the homosexuality is an illness hypothesis. The research showed that personality adjustment of same sex oriented people, their intellect and other variables resembles hetereosexual people.

The church's truth is not science and is not scientific. Sodomy is a definition from the purity code of the Hebrews in the Old Testament. It is neither a science code nor a commentary on the mental health of people. There is nothing about science involved, rather morality. Does it fully apply today? If so, are you wearing or do you own any poly-cotton clothing? Do you eat pork? Been through this sort of discussion for 25 years, rather old and tired of it, and always surprised when it re-emerges.

You insult science and show misunderstanding of it when you suggest it changes with each dissertation. It could be said just as insultingly that the bible changes each time it is translated and each time a passage is interpreted. Neither are true. It is much more important and a clear sign of intellectual maturity to hold two (or more) competing viewpoints and ideas in one's mind at the same time, refusing to foreclose on the conclusion you feel wedded to. Shame on the vilification of a new forum member - who will probably never post here again, and certainly not attend a church with such stark views.

I disagree with your conception of "wrath to come" as well. That God you have created in your mind is not the God of Love who came in Jesus. The witness of the church is about Jesus first, not Levitcus, not Paul, and not condemnation. God has more salvation than for an elect few who subscribe to such a narrow viewpoint.

I'm twice your age BTW, have 3 degrees and have written a dissertation as well as a master's thesis and honour's thesis, have been on examination committees for student dissertations, have a string of science publications, teach at a university, and am a lay reader and eucharistic assistant. For the past 34 years. I recall the legal persecution of homosexuality and the changes in the law in Canada in 1968. I have no personal stake in the argument, but I do know the world is far more diverse than I ever expected, and I do not believe Christ approves of flogging people with The Law. Only the current schismatics from worldwide Anglicanism are doing that. And shame on them. Jesus does not condemn the way they do. Shame on them.

We obviously disagree about the concepts, but I am more than annoyed at commentary which specifically targets people for who they are. I cannot imagine how some of the posters to this thread could ever speak politely to Moslems or Hindus either, if they cannot converse properly with the least bit of manners to people from the same culture with whom they disagree.

Edited for personal references.

 

If you knew me, you could not charge me with biblical literalism. I got banned from a Baptist board for not being literal enough. I was attacked by right wing fundamentalism there, and I come here and get attacked by left wing fundamentalism.

You don't follow what Jesus taught; along with less quickness to judge, and more love, He also taught to "go and sin no more ". Of course, there's the rub: those like you who plead for homosexual behavior deny it's a sin, also in clear denial of what the scriptures teach throughout. When scripture teaches something plainly, one is not being a literalist in believing the clear teaching of scripture. You have substituted modernistic hedonism and cultural relativism for Biblical authority.

 

Nowhere can you find one iota of evidence that I hate homosexuals. But lies and insults are all that left-wing fundamentalists can resort to.

Edited for continuity.

 

We might do well to learn your definition of "left wing fundamentalist", which besides seeming to be an oxymoron, also contains argumentation fallacies, that of casting those who disapprove as what they are not in more extreme and negative terms than they would be expressing in actuality. In fairness to those at the end of the spectrum that wants to retain 19th century ideals cum "traditionalist" those in the broad middle swath of Anglicanism may appear by contrast to be on the left.

Edited for language.

 

So you have sunk to a new low.

I affirm the Biblical position on homosexual acts. That does not mean I hate homosexuals.

Edited for continuity.