RESOURCE: Fathers professing sola scriptura

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by Toma, Jun 8, 2012.

  1. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Dearly beloved in Christ,

    The early Fathers mark a strong witness to the Protestant idea of "sola scriptura", a Latin phrase which does not mean "scripture alone contains everything true", but "by scripture alone do we find out what is necessary to the salvation of our souls".

    All of these quotes were discovered by others and placed on various Anglican & Reformed websites, but this is a personal collection of those quotes which I find strongest of all. I thought it'd be good to have a resource of these to defend our Anglican Communion in future, should they be needed for that purpose.

    These are ordered chronologically, by date of passage from this world.

    IRENAEUS, bishop of Lyons (A.D. 202) Against Heresies: Book 3, chapter
    2, paragraph 1

    "When [gnostic heretics] are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round
    and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of
    authority, and that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be
    extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. (They allege)
    that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but 'viva
    voce', by the 'living voice'."

    ATHANASIUS, bishop of Alexandria (A.D. 373) On the Councils of
    Arminium & Seleucia: Part 1, paragraph 6

    "Vainly do they [Arian bishops] run about with the pretext that they have
    demanded Councils for the faith’s sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient
    above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the
    proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this
    matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words
    honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ
    announced in divine Scripture."

    ATHANASIUS: Festal Letter 39, section 6

    "These [books in the canon of Scripture] are fountains of salvation, that
    they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In
    these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness.

    BASIL, bishop of Caesarea (A.D. 379) Epistle 283 (to a widow)

    "Enjoying, as you do, the consolation of the Holy Scriptures, you stand in
    need neither of my assistance nor of that of anybody else to help you to
    comprehend your duty. You have the all-sufficient counsel and guidance
    of the Holy Spirit to lead you to what is right."

    BASIL: Homily on the Faith, section 1

    "It is a manifest falling off from the faith and an argument of pride, either
    to take away any thing from the things that are written, or to introduce any
    of the things that are not written"

    BASIL: Moralia: Rule 80, section 22

    "What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full
    acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to
    reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin'
    as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word
    of God,' everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin."

    CYRIL, bishop of Jerusalem (A.D. 387) Fourth Catechetical Lecture: Section
    17

    Concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual
    statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be
    drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who
    tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the
    proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this
    salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on
    demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

    GREGORY, bishop of Nyssa (A.D. 395) On the Holy Trinity

    "We do not think that it is right to make their [modalist heretics'] prevailing
    custom the law and rule of sound doctrine. For if custom is to avail for
    proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom;
    and if heretics reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the
    inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be
    given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words."

    GREGORY of Nyssa: on the Soul and the Resurrection

    "We are not entitled to the license of affirming what we please; we make
    the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily
    fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to
    harmonize with the intention of those writings."

    AMBROSE, bishop of Milan (A.D. 397) On Cain and Abel: Book 1, chapter
    6, paragraph 22

    "I wish that virtue and faith be arrayed in the unadorned words of
    Scripture in order that they may gleam in their own light and that in due
    order they may speak out plainly for themselves. The sun and the moon
    need no interpreter. The brilliance of their light is all-sufficient a light that
    fills the entire world. Faith serves as an illumination for the inspired Word.
    It is, if I may say so, an intestate witness having no need of another's
    testimony, yet it dazzles the eyes of all mankind."

    EPIPHANIUS, bishop of Salamis (A.D. 403) The Well-Anchored Man,
    section 41

    "God is come, and the divine Scriptures explain all things to us clearly; for
    there is nothing in them difficult or obscure."

    JOHN "CHRYSOSTOM", bishop of Constantiople (A.D. 407) Third Sermon on the Parable of Dives & Lazarus, section
    3

    "Those without [the faith]—philosophers, rhetoricians, and annalists, not
    striving for the common good, but having in view their own renown—if
    they said anything useful, even this they involved in their usual obscurity,
    as in a cloud. But the apostles and prophets always did the very opposite;
    they, as the common instructors of the world, made all that they delivered
    plain to all men, in order that every one, even unaided, might be able to
    learn by the mere reading."

    CHRYSOSTOM: Homily 3 on 2 Thessalonians (1:9-10)

    "What need is there of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our
    sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? All things are clear and open
    that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain."

    JEROME (A.D. 420): Homily 18 on the Psalms of David

    " 'In his record of the peoples the Lord shall tell’: in the sacred writings, in
    His Scripture that is read to all peoples in order that all may know. Thus
    the apostles have written; thus the Lord Himself has spoken, not merely for
    a few, but that all might know and understand. Plato wrote books, but he
    did not write for all people but only for a few, for there are not many more
    than two or three men who know him. But the princes of the Church and
    the princes of Christ did not write only for the few, but for everyone
    without exception. ‘And princes’: the apostles and evangelists. ‘Of those
    who have been born in her.’ Note ‘who have been’ and not ‘who are.’ That
    is to make sure that, with the exception of the apostles, whatever else is
    said afterwards should be removed and not, later on, hold the force of
    authority. No matter how holy anyone may be after the time of the
    apostles, no matter how eloquent, he does not have authority, for ‘in his
    record of the peoples and princes the Lord shall tell of those who have
    been born in her'."

    JEROME: Against Helvidius; or, The Perpetual Virginity of the blessed
    virgin Mary, section 21

    "As we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We
    believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was
    married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read
    it."

    AUGUSTINE of Hippo (A.D. 430): Letter 140, chapter 37

    "Love to read the sacred Letters, and you will not find many things to ask
    of me. By reading and meditating, if you pray wholeheartedly to God, the
    Giver of all good things, you will learn all that is worth knowing, or at
    least you will learn more under His inspiration than through the
    instruction of any man."

    CYRIL, bishop of Alexandria (A.D. 444) Doctrinal Question 2

    "How can one clearly explain what holy writ has not stated clearly? For
    example it is written in the book of Genesis that in the beginning God
    made heaven and earth. Holy writ declared that he has made it and we
    accept this truth in faith. But meddlesome inquiry into the means, origin or
    method whereby heaven, earth and the rest of creation were brought into
    being has its harmful side, for there is no need to involve the mind in
    profundities. What divine Scripture does not state very clearly must
    remain unknown and be passed over in silence."

    THEODORET, bishop of Cyrrhus: Dialogue, Part 2: The Unconfounded

    Orth.—"So the body of the Lord rose incorruptible, impassible, and
    immortal, and is worshipped by the powers of heaven, and is yet a body
    having its former limitation".
    Eran.—"In these points you seem to say sooth, but after its assumption into
    heaven I do not think that you will deny that it was changed into the
    nature of Godhead".
    Orth.—"I would not so say persuaded only by human arguments, for I am
    not so rash as to say anything concerning which divine Scripture is silent".

    ~

    A more comprehensive version is posted in my first attempt at a blog (Cross, Crown & Communion), which is just a place to archive my discoveries.

    Every quote is checked from the Christian Classics Ethereal Library, compared over many hours with other sources; including the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. Much credit goes to Turretin Fan.
     
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  2. Scottish Monk

    Scottish Monk Well-Known Member

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    I was under the impression that the three legs in the Anglican stool of theology are Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. Some of these quotes you assembled appear to contradict our heritage.

    Maybe you can explain this statement.

    ...Scottish Monk
     
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  3. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Remembrance,
    I love your enthusiasm! These are great quotes and I appreciate your taking the time to share them, here.

    On the Church Fathers & Baptism thread, you asked me not to "peg you where you stand yet, as you are in-between spiritually-speaking." And I promised, "No "pegging." :p. So, keep my promise in mind, as I repeat what you already know about the Anglican Catechism and 39 Articles of Religion.

    Indeed, the 39 Articles of Religion proclaim that Holy Scripture contains all things necessary to salvation, and I completely agree.

    VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation.
    Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.


    Now----Here comes "Anna's however" :D : Sola Scriptura is a tough issue, because different people understand Sola Scriptura in different ways. Many Protestants understand Sola Scriptura to mean, "It's just the Bible, Jesus, and me," or "It's just the Bible, the Holy Spirit, and me." IOW, they disregard the Tradition of the Church in the interpretation of Scripture, which obviously is not the Anglican view, as Anglicanism is base on Scripture, Tradition, Reason. In fact there have been so many tensions over the meaning of Sola Scriptura that a new term has emerged: Solo Scriptura, which is really Sola Scriptura in it's strictest sense.

    As you know, the Anglican Catechism (The Holy Scriptures) states that we understand the meaning of the Bible by the help of the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church in the true interpretation of the Scriptures. The Church defined as One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, with Christ as the Head.

    1979 U.S. Book of Common Prayer
    An Outline of the Faith commonly called the Catechism

    The Holy Scriptures

    Q. What are the Holy Scriptures?
    A. The Holy Scriptures, commonly called the Bible, are the
    books of the Old and New Testaments; other books,
    called the Apocrypha, are often included in the Bible.

    Q. What is the Old Testament?
    A. The Old Testament consists of books written by the
    people of the Old Covenant, under the inspiration of the
    Holy Spirit, to show God at work in nature and history.

    Q. What is the New Testament?
    A. The New Testament consists of books written by the
    people of the New Covenant, under the inspiration of
    the Holy Spirit, to set forth the life and teachings of
    Jesus and to proclaim the Good News of the Kingdom
    for all people.

    Q. What is the Apocrypha?
    A. The Apocrypha is a collection of additional books
    written by people of the Old Covenant, and used in
    the Christian Church.

    Q. Why do we call the Holy Scriptures the Word of God?
    A. We call them the Word of God because God inspired
    their human authors and because God still speaks to us
    through the Bible.

    Q. How do we understand the meaning of the Bible?
    A. We understand the meaning of the Bible by the help of
    the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church in the true
    interpretation of the Scriptures.

    So, personally, I shy away from the phrase Sola Scriptura, because I think it is a confusing term; and because I had to release my Protestant, Southern Baptist view of Sola Scriptura in my pre-Anglican life.

    ----But then, I am Anglo Catholic, and I tend to shy away from more Reformed theology. :p

    Peace to you on your journey,
    Anna
     
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  4. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Do they? I am sorry if it seems as if I'm trying to contradict Anglican orthodoxy. I am attempting to discover just what that is! Since Bishop Jewell of Salisbury used many quotes from the Fathers in his Apology for the Church of England, and Ussher, Whitaker, et. al. do the same, I assumed it was safe to quote from the Fathers here.

    A person intending to follow the Anglican heritage, if it is based on reason, will change opinions to suit the truth as it is revealed to him, surely?

    Hmm... simplicity suits me in such matters. As a Roman, Anglicanism was protestant to me: nothing more or less, for it was 'protest'ing against the Pope's claims. When I was first shown the quotes above (among others), I was shocked, since Rome says the Fathers were all Roman Catholics, a claim which cannot be supported in light of this series of ancient witnesses. The Fathers decry the doctrine that the truths of salvation come from the Bible as well as infallible bishops/pope of the Church.

    I can explain the statement this way: I wanted to collate as many statements of the Fathers which witness to an early Church adherence of the Five Solas, which I assumed were as much a part of Anglicanism as they are Lutheranism, et al. Please forgive me if this is not an accurate lumping-together of protestant churches.

    I should admit that I'm not yet versed in the 39 Articles, though I skimmed through a few times. I will read my own now.. There are varying catechisms in the Church, thanks to the difference between 1662 (England), 1962 (Canada), and 1979, so I'm not sure which is supposed to be held authoritative as a catechism. This is precisely why we need Article VI, so if the traditions of erroneous churchmen happen to be erroneous or empty, the Scripture will guide us. This is exactly what Gregory of Nyssa affirmed against the modalists.

    Ma'am, I cannot agree! Solo scriptura is radically different from Sola scriptura, if only in terms of strict grammatical meaning. "Solo" scriptura means that we derive our worship, lives, faith, morals, science, and basically everything from the Bible, and from no other source: it literally means scripture by itself for all things (implied: and nothing else). "Sola" implies that we derive the core essentials of our faith from or through Scripture, and from no other source... but not necessarily our grammar, manner of speech, science, modes of transport, etc. The Amish (who refuse to use modern technology) are a good example of Solo Scriptura, as far as I can tell, whereas classical Divines-driven Anglicanism (which allows for scientific technological progress etc) seems to have been Sola Scriptura.

    Might we put it this way: sola scriptura = all that is necessary in faith; solo scriptura = all things in life; so, necessary salvation issues are not everything in human life?

    In the sense understood by us just now (I hope), the sixth article of religion is exactly what is being professed by all the Fathers of the Church in the litany of the O.P.! :)

    I suppose "not-shying-away" from sola scriptura is what makes evangelicals evangelicals! To each their own - especially in this day, when orthodox Anglicans who love the truths of the Lord Jesus should be united against atheism, agnosticism, and heresy, rather than divided on the comparatively pettier struggles within.

    Peace to you on your own journey too! And joy as well!

    EDIT: I'll change the OP title to read: "Fathers professing the Sixth Article of Religion"?
     
  5. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Remembrance,
    It would help me better understand where you are coming from, if you would cite your sources for these definitions of Sola Scriptura and Solo Scriptura. :)

    I agree that orthodox Anglicans should be united against atheism, agnosticism, and heresy; but I don't think my concerns regarding the term Sola Scriptura makes me "petty," nor is my opinion meant to be divisive. You brought Sola Scriptura to the table, and I responded.

    Peace and blessings,
    Anna
     
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  6. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Remembrance,
    There is an article by Fr. Jonathan (who has posted here a few times) entitled, Ask an Anglican: Confessionalism Vs. Conciliarity, Posted on October 16, 2011 (http://conciliaranglican.com/2011/10/16/ask-an-anglican-confessionalism-vs-conciliarity/) which explains the concerns regarding Sola Scriptura much better than I was able to do in my post. This is a partial quote:

    ["There was a wide range of beliefs amongst the different Protestant groups that emerged on the European continent during the sixteenth century, but what all of these Protestants shared in common was a belief in sola scriptura, the idea that Holy Scripture is not only the highest source of authority for doctrine but the only source. . . .

    . . . . .By contrast, classical Anglicanism seeks to guide us again and again back to the mind of the early Church. And the early Church was conciliar. While there may be a multitude of ways of reading the Scriptures that would produce clear and logical systems of doctrine, there is no guarantee that these systems are trustworthy if the Church, led by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, has not been given the chance to deliberate. Jesus Christ did not come to us to establish a Bible study. He came to establish a Church. Even within the Scriptures themselves, we see the early Church coming together in council, led by the Holy Spirit, to respond to difficult questions about the faith (see, for instance, Acts 15:1-22). This is, in fact, one of the purposes of the episcopate, to be able to bring the Church together in this way, to guard the flock of Christ against error (Acts 20:28). Eliminate the episcopacy and conciliarity goes with it. And once conciliarity is gone, almost any teaching can become viable, no matter how strange or novel. . . ."]
     
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  7. Scottish Monk

    Scottish Monk Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Fr. Jonathan.

    ...Scottish Monk
     
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  8. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting quotes, thanks Remembrance
     
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  9. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    Does the church include the whole people of God, or as an organisation, or as a council of bishops? or, if you believe the three branch theory, the catholic, orthodox and anglican communions and what they all agree on?
     
  10. Scottish Monk

    Scottish Monk Well-Known Member

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    Scottish cousin...

    I may get myself in trouble with my new found Anglican friends--but I think in one sense the Church can be defined as wherever people are gathered in the name of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is at work. The Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican communions--yes definitely. But the independent Church, outside of the traditions of these communions, gathering in the name of Jesus Christ, who are led by the Holy Spirit, are also the Church.

    That is the way I see it.

    ...Scottish Monk


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  11. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    Anna,

    You make some good points here. You are right that Sola Scriptura has become, and maybe always has been in most protestant circles, Solo Scriptura.

    I'd like to point out that the Holy Scriptures themselves tend to disprove the idea of Sola Scriptura, Scripture also mandates the use of tradition as well. After all, before we had the Holy Bible we had Church Traditon.

    The Anglican view is that of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. Anglicans believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in interpreting both Scripture and Tradition and that the Holy Spirit speaks to us through the Scripture to this day. Therefore, we must conclude, that Anglicanism tends to reject the idea of Sola Scriptura, at least in its present form.

    The following website shows Biblical verses that seem to contradict Sola Scriptura, as well as, quotes from the early Church (it's a Catholic website, but still a great resource).

    http://www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
     
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  12. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Sean,
    That's a great link. Excellent information. I use Catholic sources also.

    I've had the Sola Scriptura discussion so many times on CAF with Protestants who cling to this doctrine. It just doesn't work from the standpoint of Scripture and Christian history; and Protestants, themselves have proven it wrong (though most will not admit it), because they have created their own traditions. Once one word of commentary is uttered, "Scripture alone" is abandoned.

    I do know that some Christians define Sola Scriptura in a way that allows for Tradition to some extent. However, it's all so confusing; because there is no clear universal definition of Sola Scriptura. As you said, Sola Scriptura, in many Protestant circles, is really Solo Scriptura.

    From the Anglican perspective, it is one thing to say, "Holy Scripture contains all things necessary to salvation"; it is quite another to claim "Scripture alone."

    Again, great link, Sean.

    Peace,
    Anna
     
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  13. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Oh my goodness... so many things to consider after last observing this thread...! :)

    Do they need citations? It is the meaning of Latin. "Sola" implies "by", "through", or "in". "Sola scriptura" cannot properly be translated as "scripture alone [for everything]" (which is solo), but "by, from, out of scripture alone" (sola). This makes for a big difference... the ablative of "solus" is solo in the masculine and neuter, but "sola" in the feminine gender.

    Now, the preposition "by/through/in" connects "scripture alone" with something anterior: "the essentials of faith are known by/through/in scripture alone". That is the full idea, before it is reduced to the popular motto; so, we gain all knowledge of faith unto salvation from the Bible.

    2 Timothy 3:15 says Scripture is able to make you wise unto salvation, and verse 17 says the Scripture is able to make you perfect, equipped for every good work. Now, what more does a human being need than perfection and salvation? What else is there?

    My dear Christian sister, I did not call you petty; God forbid! I said that comparatively, this difference of words is small, especially when there is a tide of atheism sweeping across the world, as well as agnosticism caused by Kantian philosophy. The God of Nature is eminently provable without the Bible (as the philosophers of Britain showed in the 18th c.). By my comment, I meant that I'd much rather be out getting atheists to believe in God, than debate fellow Christians on Latin grammar. I apologise for the lack of clarity.

    Concerning Fr. Jonathan, is he Anglo-Catholic? From what I can tell, the AC position is very close to the Orthodox: Anglicanism cannot make any truly big decisions without an ecumenical council, but since Christendom is now split, there can be no ecumenical councils. Rome solved this problem, for a while, by counting those outside their Communion as not being in the Church, and thus Rome could hold general councils, and such would be ecumenical because the "whole Church" (i.e. Rome) held them.

    It seems the Anglo-Catholic party is so concerned with what Rome thinks and about the Councils of the Church, and Evangelical party is so unconcerned with what Rome thinks and don't bother with the Councils, that the rift cannot be bridged. There are two massive philosophies against each other, and yet we must unite as Christians in clarity & charity.

    For an interesting and fair comparison of the two positions between which we must live, I will cite Ambrose, bishop of Milan, who wrote a treatise on the Faith. He said this in the Prologue:

    Contrast that with a quote only two paragraphs down, after Ambrose mentions the 318 men led by Abraham into battle in Genesis 14:14:

    Chrysostom said:

    ... and yet you have many quotes of Chrysostom (in my blog ;)) affirming what seems to be quite the opposite.

    The Fathers were both evangelical and conciliar. There was always a balance in those most balanced of men.
     
  14. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Scottish Monk: I absolutely love those images you gave us. St. Ambrose himself was elected bishop of Milan not by his priests alone or by other bishops, or by a Pope, but when the ballot was up for an Arian successor at Milan, the throngs and multitudes of Catholic Christians spoke and demanded him. The Whole People of God, the redeemed Israel, the Children of the Promise and not of the Law, is the Mother Church of Ages. :)

    Scripture Catholic did nothing to convince me to remain Catholic, if that counts for anything... :p

    I can hardly believe that site is being quoted positively on an Anglican forum! So much for peace, security, and unique Anglican identity. :( I must ask honestly: why don't Anglo-Catholics become Roman Catholics? This is a very serious and honest question on my part, which has become stronger in my mind as the days have passed. Rome seems to have everything your party likes and wants. What stops you?

    This will sound subversive perhaps... but if an Anglican can quote 'scripture catholic' sites, then I may say this: what stops the Anglican tradition of "scripture, tradition, and reason" from being wrong? Clearly we must use reason to read Scripture, but the 'tradition' part can veer so close to Rome. Again, this is my rash, youthful, new-convert self speaking, but I can't stand equivocation and confusion! The Church may err today, just as it always has been able to err (hence the necessity of breaking with Rome), so why no error here?

    This is not necessarily true. The doctrine itself says that everything we need for salvation is found in the Scriptures, and thus we don't need other sources. This does not mean we cannot speak on the Scriptures and try to bring out those essential things which are less obvious. A commentator may bring out those very things, as Augustine says:

    ... but a commentator himself is not infallible, as Rome's "Magisterium" and Orthodoxy's "Holy Tradition" claim to be. If the Anglican three-legged stool idea is correct, our 'tradition' can never be infallible, but only reasonable and open to scrutiny via the Scriptures? :)

    The great irony here is that we are saying tradition is required to know the true meaning of the Scriptures (i think?), but what is the Tradition we are speaking about? It can't be the Fathers, whose tradition/commentaries almost unanimously say that Scripture needs no tradition/commentary. How confusing! :D

    Those who cling to this doctrine are proud to do so, as their only sure foundation of catholicity and truth in matters of the Holy Faith. There... each party must be strong in affirming itself.. but ever with love and forgiveness! :)

    Sola scriptura means "Scripture contains all things necessary to salvation"! There is no difference, ma'am.
     
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  15. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Sola Scriptura means different things to different people. That's why I asked you to cite your source for the definitions you gave:

    Also, where did you get the idea that Anglicanism is based on the 5 Solas of the Protestant Reformation? It would be helpful, if you would cite your source.

    If you back up to verse 10, you will find that the author also said, "You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness,"

    The author didn't just say, "Here's the Sacred Writings, you're on your own." The Gospel was transmitted orally long before it was committed to written form. I agree that Scripture contains all things necessary for salvation; but then that Scripture must be interpreted.

    2 Timothy 3:
    10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    But you are the one who started this thread on Sola Scriptura. . . . .and---I'm not debating Latin Grammar.

    Classical Anglican. See his Conciliar Anglican homepage: http://conciliaranglican.com/

    To what Anglo Catholic "party" are you referring? Sources, please.
     
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  16. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Adam, thanks for your patience here... I definitely appreciate the feeling in your mind, heart, feet, and hands after a long day...

    Why are sources required? Must a person cite sources that prove "the" is the article for a proper noun, and "a" is the article for a common noun? They're just facts of our English language. In the same way, Solo/Sola are different in Latin. :) There are not different versions or meanings of Sola scriptura, are there? If so, I must rethink my leaving the Roman Catholic Church, because this is getting confusing. :p

    My source is my own impression: the Church of England left Rome at the same time Luther was affirming his Five Solas. Cranmer went abroad in exile to Lutheran areas. All the Reformers, in the end, were followers of either Luther or Calvin, the biggest names. Is that correct? My other source is simply an Anglican friend who said that Anglicanism is protestant, and I made the connection with the 5 solas.

    Must Scripture be interpreted (as if it were too foggy without interpretation) based on that alone? Perhaps the "teaching" Paul refers to is communicated in the local epistles (Corinthians, Galatians, etc) as well as the epistles to Timothy. It's comprehensive. His teaching is the only thing that matters there: conduct, aim in life, faith, patience, love, and steadfastness are just personal qualities that are edifying.

    Isn't it fascinating that Paul speaks of keeping to what Timothy has learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom he learned it, and how from childhood he was acquainted with the scriptures which confer salvation?

    If you wish to make a difference between sola scriptura and solo scriptura, I'm afraid we must bring it down to the level of grammar. That is the entire point, for grammar conveys meaning and purpose.

    What one means by "Classical" Anglican is quite obscure today, given that Anglo-Catholics claim to be the classical catholic Christians just as much as Evangelicals. The very use of "Father" suggests A.C., doesn't it? Then again, you have words like "Reverend Father in God", in the pre-Anglo-Catholic 1662 BCP.

    No one ever said this forum is for people who know everything. I am very happy to learn from you and others, Anna.

    Sources? To what Anglo-Catholic party are you referring when you put it under your Religion? Anglo-Catholic is Anglo-Catholic. Why must be cite everything as if this were an academic library? Can't we use words without having their basic meaning questioned?
     
  17. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    Remembrance,

    Everything in my previous post on Sola Scriptura is classical Anglicanism, not Anglo-Catholicism. The site is being positively quoted on an Anglican site because it is an excellent resource for showing the shortcommings of the Sola Scriptura. It wasn't my intention for that site to convince you remain Catholic, but to show you the shortcommings of Sola Scriptura.

    Also, Anglo-Catholics are NOT Anglo-Papists. There are many issues that separate Anglo-Catholics from reuniting with Rome. Anglo-Catholics, in its most basic sense, hope to retain traditions from their shared heritage with Roman Catholicism. Some Anglicans pray the rosary, some do not. Some Anglican churches make use of incense, some do not. Some Anglican churches are very "high church," others are not. Being an Anglo-Catholic doesn't make one any less of an Anglican. Most differences between Anglo-Catholics and Anglicans are ceremonial and, generally, not theological. Also, Anglican theology can be very hard to "peg" down. Many provinces within the Communion very diverse, however, we are united by the creeds and our Anglican Identity (which largely draws from our shared heritage with Rome, like it or not).

    The Reformation did not have the same impact on the Church of England as it did in other places. Anglicanism is largely seen as a "third way" or a "middle way" between Rome and Protestantism. Some evangelical Anglicans affirm the 5 Solas, some Anglican theologians from the past, like Cranmer, make reference to the 5 Solas. However, there are not official/binding statements that Anglicans must believe or confess belief in the 5 Solas.
     
  18. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sean, all that is very informative... as with Anna, I ask your continual forgiveness for being so impatient and demanding.

    All those patristic quotes set me upside-down. I was taught by Rome to see the Fathers who were bishops as infallible, when speaking on matters of the faith - just as Scripture is infallible. To see so many Fathers maintain what seemed to be an evangelical or reformed position set me off kilter 100%. There is nothing more confusing than to go from sturdiness & solidity to something apparently so individualist & alien within a few months.

    In finding these quotes of the Fathers, I wished to be rid of all Catholic influence. Anglo-Catholicism was a fairly nice alternative at first, but the way the Fathers spoke, it faded away immediately. I wanted to be as opposite Rome as is possible! It is an understandable spiritual & psychological reaction of many people, no? Low churchmen, in being 100% against popery, will be 100% against everything they see as popery, getting rid of altar cloths, candles, crosses, rails, paintings, etc. - often, we human sinners are wrong... so often!

    Having seen how far unbridled love of tradition can go in Rome and Orthodoxy (I won't mention examples, or else Anna will kill me for not citing sources :p just trust me!), those Fathers were so... new, so refreshing! No more purgatory, no more scrupulosity that I hadn't properly celebrated This Saint's Day or had missed That Saint's Feast. So much seeming contrivance done away with.

    Please find a place in your heart for the young and the unstable, many of whom may come to this forum seeking a warm affinity for those who are not sure about anything in the current Christian world schisms and crises. :)
     
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  19. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    Further, if Anglicans did confess a belief in the 5 Solas and all other Reformation theology, then what would be left of our Anglican identity? Wouldn't we just be high church Lutherans with a prayer book?

    The Episcopal Church here in the United States has many Anglo-Catholic features:

    Eucharist as the central act of worship? Check.
    Confession in the Prayer Book? Check.
    Holy Week services in the BCP? Check.
    The Gloria at the beginning of the Mass and the Peace? Check and Check.
    Vestments? Check.

    Again, not all Anglican provinces are the same. Other provinces may be more "evangelical/reformed" in their theology and worship. Anglican theology and practice is not monolithic like Roman Catholic theology and practice. Catholics look to the Pope and Church for interpretation of doctrine and theology. Anglicans look to Scripture, Tradition, and Reason to arrive at their answers. People are allowed to hold more diverse belief in the Anglican faith than the Catholic faith. It is definitely a source of strain in the Communion to have such diverse beliefs, but it is what makes us Anglican.
     
  20. Adam Warlock

    Adam Warlock Well-Known Member

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    Young and unstable describes much of my life. Studying, asking questions, and seeking after God is always a good thing. :)
     
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