Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Aidan, Jun 4, 2016.
Suicide Blasts 4
How many such incidents have been inspired by the Christian faith?
Sura 9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Congratulations, you know how to cite a verse out of context. (And that's aside from your insistence on relying on extremist translations to make your point.)
Sounds pretty extreme to me. But it pales in comparison to this:
What a frightful image, and so very different from the usual depictions of Jesus in the Gospels. Yet this is tame compared to some other passages. I can't think of a single passage in the Qur'an that sounds even remotely like this. This is not to say that Islam doesn't have and hasn't had a problem with violence, only that the reasons for that simply cannot be traced to the Muslim Scriptures. And the notion that Christianity by contrast is inherently a peaceful religion doesn't have any credibility in the 21st century, either. This triumphalism is based on ignorance and prejudice, not love for the people involved. Don't apply a standard of criticism to another religion that you're not willing to have applied to your own.
What is this, "Absurdity Theater"? Comparing verses concerning God's wrath to suras commanding Muslims to force non-Muslims into submission is the proverbial apples-to-oranges comparison. Better to compare the sura to the verses in which Jesus commanded His disciples to love their enemies and to "turn the other cheek."
Obviously, some people will go to tremendous lengths to uphold Islam and protect its reputation. It boggles the mind that any true Christian would do so, since Islam is fundamentally a false, evil religion; not only does it inspire suicide bombings and other horrific deeds, it is guiding its followers to eternal damnation. There is no good in Islam.
The fact that most Muslims you might know seem very nice and socially well-adjusted, the religion they follow and serve is no better than worship of Dagon, Zeus, or Beelzebub.
Those who read the indicated documents would do well to also familiarize themselves with the Islamic practice of taqiyya.
This may have been somewhat of an overstatement on my part, I'll concede. But I can see the mechanisms by which Islam could begin to look more and more like the Taliban. The more violent, reactionary branches of belief are doing all they can to spread themselves and to infiltrate mosques all around the world. They are aggressive and heavily invested in converting the entire world to their radical views, and in comparison to the peaceful branch of Islam this makes them inherently better equipped and better poised to grow. When radical Muslims gain strength in an area, they begin to assert themselves in an authoritarian fashion; the peaceable Muslims are cowed into quiescence by their violence-prone brethren, and the children of the former are recruited and radicalized. Christians are also peaceable and at first they are deceived into thinking that Islam poses no threat to them; by the time they see a threat they are being intimidated. The process in a given area or society sometimes can be so gradual, spread over a period of years or decades, that most people never see it coming.
I'm not saying that this growth of radical Islam is entirely inevitable. However, it is worth being aware of and guarded against if possible. See this 2010 report from the Combating Terrorism Center.
It is generally accepted that Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. Part of the reason is their higher than average birth rate.
Sharia law subjugates women and punishes homosexuals. I wonder if anyone knows of a majority-Muslim nation which has not enacted Sharia law?
Taqiya is for all practical purposes forbidden in Sunni Islam. The circumstances in which it would apply almost never happen. Islamophobic Christians like to bring this up without mentioning the most recent relevant context: the Spanish Reconquista, in which Christian authorities were compelling the Muslim and Jewish residents of Spain to convert to Christianity.
Most Muslim-majority countries do not uniformly enforce Shariah. It has no role at all in Turkish law (the Turkish and the Egyptian legal systems are based on the French Civil Code derived from Napoleon), nor in most of the central African and central Asian Muslim-majority countries. In most of the others, the primary influence of Shariah is on family rather than criminal law. Even Iran has a Constitution and parliamentary legislation that’s distinct from the Shariah. Outside the Gulf States what one typically finds are mixed systems.
I acknowledge that the RCC did this, and it was reprehensible.
Thanks for the info. I was wondering.
Strictly speaking, it wasn’t the RCC; it was Isabella (and, to a lesser extent, Ferdinand). The dual monarchy let it be known that in Spain, they, not the Pope, were in charge. Every aspect of church administration was controlled by the State, not Rome.
Around 50% of Muslim-majority Nations have no Sharia, and a few only have Sharia in some states, or only have Sharia courts for some parts of the law (e.g. family law but not criminal law in Syria).
Turkey (although increasingly under Islamist pressure, still has no Sharia)
Bosnia & Herzegovina
The Soviet -stans (e.g. Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, etc.)
Those are just off the top of my head, because I couldn't find an easy list online. There's probably more. With some muslim-majority countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, the UAE and Nigeria having split systems where some states/regions/cities have Sharia penal codes, and some do not. I believe the muslim-majority states in Thailand and India also have no Sharia, but I might be wrong.
That being said, Sharia is a growing trend, and more countries are adopting it not less. Just 20 years ago there would be another 10 or so countries on that list, partly due to the Arabisation of Africa and South-East Asia, and partly due to the spread of Salafism. This is especially visible in historically secular states like Syria (which has already been forced to adopt some Sharia courts), Turkey and Indonesia, but it's generally happening everywhere. Most countries only began to adopt Sharia courts after the proliferation of radical Islam, and the Islamists began to have political success. Women in Iran and Afghanistan used to walk around in short shorts and singlets before their revolution and civil war, respectively. Somalia only adopted Sharia in 2009. Since the Civil War in Syria, and the incredibly successful conversion campaigns of ISIS and other radical islamists groups, Syria is now considering implementing regional Islamic criminal courts in areas ISIS used to control (and dispersed/killed the moderate population of), to quell unrest and insurgency. There are towns where the elders of a family were Ba'athist student activists demanding secular rule who went on to be Oxford educated secular lawyers, and their children are Salafist fundamentalist clerics judging over Sharia courts, and dressing their wives and daughters in burqas.
Things were a whole lot more complicated than what you or anyone are making it out to be. At first Muslims were granted freedom of religion.One king even said he would protect their right in his coronation. After some bad feeling arising from some stupid actions, really taken by a Spanish Bishop, a revolt broke out. It took 80,000 troops and a year to put down. It was pretty bad. This caused forced conversations to take place only in Granada. Before that you have to remember that Muslims had been living in different regions of Spain for a long time and things were fairly tolerant for them. Not perfect but when it perfection ever going to happen in this world? After the forced conversions though it was decided that this was a pretty decent policy so it was carried out in all of Castile and eventually in all of Spain. Navarre at the time was an independent kingdom from Castile or Aragon and had no such policy until conquered by Castile.
Then you had the expulsion of the Moriscos that took place over 100 years later for different reasons once again.
Moral of this story history is way more complicated than simple explanations.
Goodness, we couldn’t hope to go into the full details on a forum site. Diarmaid McCulloch’s The Reformation has a chapter that goes into a lot of detail about just what was happening in Spain in those years. Parallels and contrasts between Spain and England during that period are fascinating in their own right.
“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.”
I guess physical violence against women is a tolerable good to allah
Let’s hear what the actual Abrahamic God has to say:
“In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church”
Every religious tradition in the world has its share of difficult scriptural passages and “hard sayings”.