Ramadan

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Aidan, Jun 4, 2016.

  1. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't agree with this. What is happening in the Muslim world is that some of its stricter interpretations are being foisted on Muslim communities either insidiously in the background through money (Saudi Arabia) or through fear and violence (Iran). There was never one Muslim culture; it differed around the world. For example, in Europe Bosnian Muslims did not dress anything like the way Muslims often dress in places like Saudi Arabia.

    When I was at school we had a significant number of Muslims in our school. They were quite accepting of our culture. Muslim lads were often to be found at the same parties as us. Muslim girls differed in one way from non-Muslim girls. They wore trousers rather than skirts. They did not wear head scarves. All islam requires is modest dress, not head covereings or women covering their faces.

    What has happened? I'm still not sure. But, those same men are now making their wives, daughters and mothers adopt and follow a more strict interpretation of Islam even though their own parents had allowed them to live a less strict lifestyle.
     
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  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that we are basically, or have in the past, been scraping the most educated western people off their communities. They are not a good or true representation of their population.
     
  3. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    You can agree or not agree with it but what I said is true. You are right there has never been one Muslim culture just as there has never been one Western Culture but there are over arching similarities that cut across the different sub cultures of the over arching culture.

    There has been period of times wher eIslam was applied more strict or had stricter understandings and then there were times where it was more secular. The fundamental basis of the culture has always been the same. What you were describing is one of the lesser times and for a variety of reasons we are seeing a swing in the other way now.
     
  4. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    A good general rule is that things relax in times of prosperity and retrench in times of trouble. It is pretty historical to see that
     
  5. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It is not and is some ways it's a form a racism. It's done far too often. All Muslims are the same. All Jews are the same. All Hindus are the same. It's not true. Too often people only think there is a diverse range of Christians depending on where they live in the world. The same is true for believers of other faiths. Like Christians they are affected not only by their religion but by other aspects of their lives. It leads to the incorrect and dangerous conclusions that the Taliban or Hezbollah are representative of Islam.
     
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  6. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I can see all of anecdotes and everyone's opinions with now over 2 decades worth of study. My main area of focus is on Byzantium but with a main area of Byzantium comes a huge over lap with Islam. Not only a huge overlap of Islam at the time but then an expanded focus on looking at how it developed later on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
  7. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Where did I say everyone was the same? Literally point it out to me. You can't because I did not. Until you are serious about talking about this and will drop the stupid name calling of racism there will be no further reason to discuss this with you.
     
  8. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    DELETED.
     
  9. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I think there are a number of ancillary issues here that are worth pondering. First of all, how we engage other faiths often says a lot about how we approach our own. Second, every Muslim is a potential Christian. To accuse Muslims as a whole of attitudes, prejudices, or criminality that actually applies to <1% of the Muslim population, and then to claim vindication when they’ve heard it enough to start protesting it, is theological gaslighting. That kind of abusive behavior discredits the Gospel. Last, when uninformed Christians make false statements about another faith, that’s a lie. And an unrepented lie is an unrepented sin. And if that sin prevents anyone from coming to the Gospel, the ones who propagated it will ultimately be held accountable. That ought to be a sobering thought for anyone who cares about their own destiny. Whoever says anything publicly about a religion other than their own really ought to make sure beforehand that they know what they’re talking about, for their own sake.
     
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  10. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Just to point out. I am not talking or saying anything about the Islamic religion. Basically every single point I am making about culture could be applied to the Christian population of the region. Integration and assimilation is harder for those not of the same cultural milieu. Hispanics from South America are going to assimilate better in the US faster than Muslims from Pakistan. It also does not help that Western cultures and different Arabic cultures have been at war for over 1000 years on and off. Note I say Arabic Cultures. I m ight have used Muslim earlier and that is a mistake on my part although there is a significant overlap between Arabic and non arabic Islamic cultures because the religion helps to define the culture.
    With that being said you might wonder why my critiques would then apply to Christians from regions like that. Well the truth of the matter is other than their religion the people share generally the same culture. It is not ours and is different than ours.
     
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  11. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    My comment wasn't directed at you or intended as criticism of anything you specifically said. I was raising issues that I hope the whole group will consider.
     
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  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the facts must not matter to you, or you'd do a little historical research.

    The example I raised concerning the Barbary Pirates is easy enough to support. Jefferson and Adams were tasked with travel to Europe to meet with the ambassador from Tripoli and attempt to work out an amicable agreement. The ambassador informed the American gentlemen that no agreement was possible:
    The ambassador explained that the conduct of the Barbary Coast pirates “was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise” (Papers 9: 358).​

    This motivation has been prevalent throughout the history of Islam. They only negotiate when they are set back on their heels; when they are strong they commit acts of aggression in the name of their prophet and their god.

    The faith of Islam requires acknowledging not only that Allah is the only god, but also that Muhammad is Allah's prophetic messenger. It is necessary for us to know Muhammad, therefore, so we may know Islam.

    Muhammad's first real "job" in life was raiding caravans that passed Medina on their way between Mecca and Damascus. He robbed caravans and murdered merchants to make his living. His first four were the raids of Al-Iwa', Bawat, Al-Ashira, and Al-Nakhla. The agreement he had with his gang was that they got 80% of the booty and he got 20%. Muhammad would plow his money back into the business, hiring more men and pulling bigger jobs.

    Then came the battle of Badr. Muhammad with 300 men went out to rob another caravan sponsored by Abu Sufyan (wealthiest man in Mecca), but the latter heard about the planned robbery and sent for extra men, many of whom were friends and relatives of some of the raiders. Muhammad "got some verses" from Allah and used them to inspire his men to attack their brethren anyway. 400 men died in that battle. Then Muhammad "got a verse" that authorized him to keep all the spoils. 70 women were taken captive at Badr, and Muhammad made their families pay ransoms to get them back.

    Does a prophet's calling depend on robbing, plundering, and killing people?

    Muhammad sent 3,000 men to besiege the fort at Banu Quraiza. He had a trench dug around it. Then the Jews of Banu Quraiza were offered safety if they would lay down their arms and open the fort. The Jews trusted Muhammad's word and complied. Muhammad killed all 900 men, and divided the women and children among his own companions. How it was done: Muhammad had the Jews led to the trench, 10 at a time, where they were beheaded, thrown into the ditch, and covered with dirt. Despite the women's screams and wails, Muhammad and his men continued the slaughter until all 900 men were dead. Then Muhammad, his hands still covered with the blood of the innocent, had the captive women displayed before him and singled out the most beautiful woman, Rihana Bint Amro, for himself. His offer to her: instead of becoming his slave, he would free her and marry her. The woman, whose husband and three brothers had just been murdered, refused and spit on Muhammad. So Muhammad kept her as a slave and had intercourse with her while her limbs were tied.

    This was the messenger of Allah. Should I continue?

    Islam rose upon the foundation of terrorism: raiding, robbing, killing. Then it progressed to killing the Jews at Khaybar and Medina, and killing the Christians at Medina and Taif. A former Muslim-turned-Christian, Mohammad Al Ghazoli, wrote: "Muslims throughout history have followed in the steps of the founder of the Islamic religion, Muhammad bin Abd Allah. Because of that, today we see Islamists in Egypt rob the stores and churches of Christians, killing them without any remorse. Why shouldn't they do that when their prophet, Muhammad, led in those detestable actions during his raids and assaults, allowing the killing of the innocent, stealing their wealth, and raping their captive wives?"
     
  13. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    There is no "Muslim" race. Islam is a religious/political movement, not a race.

    Is there a "race" of Christians? Of course not.
     
  14. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    LOL, as if you came up with what followed on your own. You give the game away in your last paragraph. Citing biased secondary sources is not "research". I have been reading whatever primary sources I could get my hands on most of my adult life. Your mind is already made up. To respond further would be a waste of time of effort.
     
  15. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    For those who are genuinely interested in the topic, here are two documents that would be worth your time to read:
    The first one is a fatwa issued by a prominent U.K.-based Malaysian cleric and academic, in the aftermath of the 2005 London bombings:
    https://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html
    The second one is a joint statement from 38 leading clerics of all backgrounds, responding to some remarks made by Pope Benedict XVI during his Regensburg Lecture in 2006:
    https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/research_sites/cjl/texts/cjrelations/news/openletter-8238DA.pdf
    Both are well worth reading. Enjoy!
     
  16. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Yep, a Christian who was raised and educated in Islam, and who converted after seeing all the problems, is definitely going to be biased toward Christianity (which teaches truthfulness) and against Islam. No argument there.

    The people who are well taught their Islamic faith are far more likely to know of its sordid roots. The ones who mistakenly think that Muhammad was a holy, peaceable man are the ones who will emulate that mental image in living holy, peaceable lives. But they are the ones who are most deceived concerning the true nature of Islam; the Muslims who know the truth look at the peaceable ones as 'useful idiots' to be milked for funds and sympathy and to be eventually cast aside when their usefulness abates.

    You desire "better" sources for details of Muhammad's cruelty? Try reading these:
    The Life of the Prophet, Haikal, pp. 347-351
    Al-Sira Al-Halabia, Al-Halabi, Vol. II, pp. 675-677
    Rawd Al-Unuf, Imam As-Suhaili, Vol. III, pp. 267-271
    Other authors who record the gory fate of Banu Quraiza'a inhabitants at Muhammad's hands include Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Khaldoon, Al-Booti, Al-Khudri, and Al-Adid.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
  17. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    So, you’ve read all of these? Why didn’t you mention Lings?
    Quoting primary sources that are merely referenced in a secondary source doesn’t count either. Have you ever read the Qur’an?
     
  18. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Your mind is made up. Responding further would be a waste of time and effort! :p
     
  19. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I will take that as a "No". Thank you for confirming it. :cool:
     
  20. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Here is an interesting passage: