Praying to Saints Question?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Dave, Aug 31, 2012.

  1. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Sean,
    Good to see you back on the forums. :)

    I don't understand it either; and you are right: "This dead horse has been beaten to death."

    Anna
     
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  2. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Funny, we Protestants have always seen that not as an exhortation to only ask righteous people to pray for us, but an exhortation for each of us to live the life of love, holiness, and righteousness all the days of our life. It is a declaration that we must each live like that, so our prayer might have power. The Lord Jesus Himself famously said that the faith of each man, if strong enough, can uproot trees and overturn mountains. I don't think that passage from James has anything to do with approaching especially-righteous people.

    Okay, I repent and turn from my assertion, as promised. :) Sometimes I can get too impulsive when a subject bothers my conscience.

    It does not cause us to be angry brother Sean; it causes us to become sorrowful for the lack of glory given to God. Let me explain. :)

    We who cannot abide prayer to the dead, have a conception of God's glory that encompasses His mercy in a radical way. "The glory of God is man fully alive", but God made man fully alive by the Incarnation, Passion, and Resurrection of our Lord & Saviour Jesus the Christ. By His ascension, session at the Right Hand of God, and intercession for us, His mercy is totally all-encompassing. None of the sons of men are righteous, no not one. We are exhorted that the prayer of the righteous man is powerful only so we might strive and hunger for righteousness, not that any of us may actually attain it except in Christ and at the final purification at the End.

    Look at Ignatius of Antioch to the Romans:


    Christ is our righteousness. We need no merits of any mere man to take our prayers up to the Father, except the God-man. :) Prayer to the 'saints' can hurt our relationship with God because He is almighty, His is eternal, He is the watcher of our hearts, and all is in Him. We rely on none in Heaven but Him. The fact is that no one ever talks to the dead in the entire Bible except via the witch of Endor, and there are no legitimate, sanctioned instances of prayer to the departed for at least 300 years of the Christian Church. If it's so orthodox, doctrinal, and good, why is there no evidence?

    The fact is, that no matter how often it is said that we're just asking friends to pray for us, it's never practiced as if it was merely that. The mindset is one of reverence due to no men.
     
  3. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your thoughtful reply Consular, however, by this logic why even ask our friends or family to pray for us? I agree that God's power is all encompassing and that it is not necessary to ask others or Saints to pray for us, however, most of us would agree that asking our friends and family to pray for us gives us comfort. By asking our friends, family, or even Saints to pray for us, we are not saying that God's power is not all encompassing nor are we saying that we must have our family, friends, or Saints pray for us. What we are saying is that having others pray for us makes us feel better and draws us closer to God. Again, i'm not saying that it's for everybody or that everybody should do it, however, millions of Christians find comfort knowing that others are praying for us.
     
  4. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Our religion is not about comfort. It is about glorifying the One who pursues us with all His love. :)

    We can ask our family and friends to pray for us because they are present with us. The saints, if they are saints (which is another thing we can't know since we do not search hearts), are departed to us, dead to us, and gone to us, even if they are present to God, alive to God, and near in God. Their ears are degraded into the ash from whence they came, so they cannot hear our oral prayers. They are described as having fallen asleep (regardless of what Revelation says), so how can they be so omnipresent as to hear the requests of every man on Earth? Exactly how are we supposed to contact those who are asleep? It seems so superstitious and 'psychic'.

    We can be sure that prayers to the departed did not begin, officially, in the Church until the vast numbers of improperly-educated pagans were received in the 4th century. They inevitably (if accidentally) changed the theology of death, I think.

    Those who contact the dead, or try to, are always condemned in Scripture. Even when Moses & Elijah appeared with Christ upon the mount of Transfiguration, note that neither Peter, James, nor John, attempted to speak to them - only to Jesus. The patriarch and the prophet made no attempt to speak to the three Apostles.

    This is more a matter of logical thought & using our common sense, than of anything else. I forget exactly where, but St. Paul even says that when we are in this life, we are separated from Christ. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak, after all. We "anti-saint" people merely worry that attributing their merits to the hope of receiving anything from God, is very harmful to ideas about the uniqueness and splendor of God's righteousness.

    I am glad you are back, by the way.
     
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  5. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Sean,
    Along the same stream of thought, we as Christians are not meant to be isolated from one another. We are part of the Mystical Body of Christ. Throughout the N.T. we find this need for fellowship revealed and encouraged.

    When we pray for someone and see that prayer answered, we praise God and rejoice together---and go on to share this answered prayer with others as well.

    It is God who gives power to the prayers of the faithful. In doing so, His name is glorified and we are brought into closer communion with the Holy Trinity---and with each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Edited to add:

    James 5:15 (ESV):
    15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

    James 5:
    16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

    1 Peter 3:
    12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
    and his ears are open to their prayer.
    But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

    See also: Genesis 18:23-32; Genesis 20:17; Numbers 11:2; 1 Kings 13:6; 1 Kings 17:22; 2 Kings 4:33; 2 Kings 19:15-20; 2 Kings 20:2-5; Job 42:8; Proverbs 15:29
     
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  6. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    I understand and appreciate your logic, however, please show me where it says that the Saints in heaven cannot hear our prayers and do not pray for us. Asking the departed to pray for us is an ancient practice that can be traced to the origins of the Church and even further back into Judaism.

    My point still stands, using this logic, asking our friends/family to pray for us is not trusting fully in the power of God, is it not? Afterall, God does not keep a "quota" of how many people must pray for a person for him to answer the prayer. Why bother asking anyone to pray for us? It goes back to my point of giving us comfort. Lets say your right and the Saints can't hear us, how is the practice harmful? If asking the Saints to pray for us is not giving full glory to God, then asking our friends and family to pray for us is not giving full glory to God's power either.
     
  7. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Consular,
    How do you support the claim that the ears of the saints cannot hear our oral prayers?
     
  8. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Anna and Consular for the welcome! I never really left , I was on vacation with the family, needed to recharge my batteries a bit. (I still checked in from time to time while on vacation, I really enjoy the forum!)
     
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  9. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Glad your absence was for a good reason. :)
     
  10. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Anna & Sean, you are the party that claim the positive position; it is yours to demonstrate, not ours to negate. Anyway, it just makes sense: the ears of the saints cannot hear because they're decomposed, the brain is dead, and there's no soul inhabiting their bodies. How else do human beings communicate with other human beings?

    Show me anywhere in the Scriptures where someone contacts the dead by means other than the witch of Endor. The burden of demonstration is upon the party that insists we are able to do something, not upon those who call it impossible. "Nothing shall be impossible with God", yes, but only if He specifically grants that something - which He does not appear to have done with regards to our contact with the dead. :)

    Requesting the prayers of the saints can be traced to Judaism? Perhaps the rabbinic or pharisaic traditions which Christ condemned, but no where can it be found in the divine Scriptures, surely! The most ancient vision we have of praying to any saint is the Sub tuum praesidium to Mary, but it was not some sort of approved, official prayer - it is found in caves and on tablets, and could've been written by gnostic Christians or anyone else. We need solid proofs and reasons from those who practiced this, if there were any.

    We may ask others to pray for us out of comfort, but if God knows all things and what we need, I cannot say why it would be essential. I do not feel strictly comfortable asking anyone to intercede for me but Christ, to be perfectly honest.

    If we are trying to contact spirits who aren't there (i.e. can't hear us), it's not harmful, just a silly waste of time when we could be getting on with the Infinite Kingdom that is the interior life of the holy, blessed, and glorious Trinity. It becomes harmful when the saints are petitioned as powers in of themselves, to find lost objects, to help us get grace(s), to protect us on our travels, and a million other things.

    Merely asking them to pray seems harmless enough, but it never stays in just that realm with the ordinary, uneducated, or ignorant people who just want comfort (not you, but an average, simple Christian). The Orthodox currently say "save us, most holy theotokos, by thy powerful intercessions". Surely that's not good at all, and yet it began in apparently-innocent requests that the departed pray for us! I oppose it because it's a very dangerous and rocky path to take, and easily scandalous for the simple, sending us into superstition. This is how ancient heroic men like Zeus became divinized over the ages: at first men prayed for their help from the 'gods', and eventually those heroes became gods by process of associating the heavenly with the mortal.

    No one ever dreams of kneeling down to ask his brother or friend to pray for him, but that's how saint-whisperers address the saints - in the same posture as when they address God. Associations creep up over the ages, and lead to undue assumptions about the departed. That's all... we must be jealous for God's glory, and careful that we do no wrong for His sake.
     
  11. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Consular,

    You do entertain! lol. No one is claiming a decomposed body can hear; and discussion goes both ways.
     
  12. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Well I've made my 'proofs'. :) The discussion may continue.

    A decomposed body can't hear: exactly. Human beings are fully human in body & soul, though. We can only communicate with other humans bodily, no matter what psychics and crystal-ball type fakers insist. That's the basis of everything.
     
  13. Adam Warlock

    Adam Warlock Well-Known Member

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    We're not Solo scriptura.

    WHAT???
     
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  14. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Indeed you're not, but Anglicans confess that everything necessary to salvation is contained in Scripture. Since Scripture contains no commandments about this (other than to forbid it), there seems to be no reason to engage in it, except for a feeling of (deceptive) comfort.

    It is the righteousness of His Son that God sees, in the faithful. :) Those who have washed their garments in the blood of the lamb are considered only because of the washing. It is all in Christ, for Christ, and through Christ. That's all. Praying to heavenly persons other than the Father through Christ is non-biblical and superfluous!
     
  15. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    Where does Holy Scripture forbid this practice? We have had about 4 or 5 threads that cover intercession and I have yet to see where it's forbidden by Scripture. Even Mr. Sola Scriptura himself, Martin Luther, found nothing wrong with the Hail Mary and even encouraged its use as long as those doing it did so with faith. Here is what Luther had to say:

    Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).
    Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).

    Martin Luther correctly points out that saying the Hail Mary is giving glory to God.
     
  16. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    More of Luther's Marian theology:

    One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace.. .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ...Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).


    Considering that Martin Luther prayed the Catholic rosary and found nothing wrong with Marian devotion, apparently he found nothing in Scripture that forbids its use.
     
  17. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Luther later repudiated the use of the Hail Mary, though he called her Theotokos (which is fine). Anyway, Luther isn't our Magisterium. ;)

    Holy Scripture forbids the practice of necromancy, which is an attempt to contact the realm of the dead. It's similar enough to talking to the "saints" (whom Satan can disguise himself as) to make me shiver.
     
  18. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    EDIT: Oh wait, wrong thread... :) Never mind...
     
  19. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    You're right, Luther is not our Magisterium, but he is often quoted (or his ideas of the solas used) when it's convenient to the "protestant" cause, yet his dedication and devotion to Mary and his praying the rosary is largely ignored by most protestants today.

    I respect the fact that intercession is not for you Consular, but trying to connect it to necromancy is a stretch!

    EDIT: It's interesting that Luther is not our Magisterium, yet some Anglicans hold his 5 solas as being truly Anglican....interesting!
     
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  20. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Many Catholics quote his "epistle of straw" reference to James in his 1523 preface to the Epistle, but Luther repudiated that language in a later edition. No one ever credits him for that; just so, no one ever credits him for abandoning the Hail Mary and the rosary, as he did later.

    You're too respectful of a choice that might be my neglecting of a holy obligation or duty. It's not each our role to police one another, of course, but we should be concerned for fellow souls. That's the only reason I argue here. :)

    All the solas are in the 39 articles, even if the words "sola X" are not used. :)