Orthodox and Anglicans

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by Toma, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. mark1

    mark1 Active Member

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    Can we not accept the teachings of our ancestors in faith?

    the incarnation of the eternal Word of God, when it states: "The more frequently, Christ, Mary, the mother of God, and the saints are seen, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these icons the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honored and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred objects" (Definition of the Second Council of Nicaea).

     
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  2. Servos

    Servos Active Member

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  3. Servos

    Servos Active Member

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    Orthodox Metropolitan Hilarion visited Anglican Nashotah House Theological Seminary in Wisconsin
    27.10.2012

    On October 26, Metropolitan Hilarion took part in the Nashotah House academic gathering, at which he was honoured the degree of doctor honoris causa. In his address, Metropolitan Hilarion said:

    “Allow me to express my joy at being within the walls of the Nashotah House Seminary, a renowned theological educational institution, one of the oldest on the American continent and one of the leading in the Anglican world. Established one hundred and seventy years ago, the seminary has educated many Anglican clergymen and laymen who have served in various communities of the Anglican Communion."

    [​IMG]

    Full article:
    http://mospat.ru/en/2012/10/27/news74034/
     
  4. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Do the 38 Article really go against bowing and kissing icons? Tract 90, sec. 6 addresses this issue and quotes the Homilies in its argument for veneration of relics:
    While Servos may not be able to, in good conscience, switch to Anglicanism according to Consular but thankfully that's not the only room in the house. I think you would fit right in with the great mass of Anglo-catholic Anglicans out there, especially those who are more concilliar rather than "Romish".
     
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  5. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Article 22, taken in its plain sense and without the mystical interpretations of dreamers, is against veneration of idols. The words themselves declare it! Even if detached from the doctrine of Purgatory (which is not an Orthodox belief, after all), it still says "images and relics", and invocation of saints, are empty and invented by men - repugnant to the holy WORD of GOD.

    I think William Goode would be an excellent medicine against the lies which Newman - wittingly or unwittingly - spread in Tract 90: http://archive.org/details/a622131200gooduoft

    Anglo-Catholics are not Anglicans, but novel believers who are looking for Medievalism. They have no place in classical Anglicanism, and should become Romans or Greeks. It's a small tent which requires hard self-discipline. The LORD is merciful, but His House is not to be defiled by any superstition, idolatry, or blasphemy. His original plan is large enough to include all people under one roof if they are obedient - but we have been disobedient, allowing many attachments, annexes, basements, and grotesque towers to be built onto His goodly, simple abode.

    This is not according to Consular, but according to the Word of God, and seeking the purity of good religion! Physical incense, icons, statues, prayers to the dead, and suchlike, are abhorrent to Him! I fear for the Orthodox, the Romanists, and the Anglo-Catholics alike.
     
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  6. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Epiphanius of Salamis wrote, in 394, against images of any sort in the holy churches:

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.v.LI.html (Section 9)

    I have heard that certain persons have this grievance against me: When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ’s church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have sent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort—opposed as they are to our religion—shall not be hung up in any church of Christ.

    Even if Epiphanius had been wrong, it is still an edifying thing that he teaches us. We should ever look for pure worship of Our LORD.
     
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  7. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Boo! :D
     
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  8. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I do honestly fear for their souls, but yes, they do actually scare me sometimes... :p
     
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  9. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Iconoclasm was declared a heresy
     
  10. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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  11. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Yeah, by an heretical council to whom Christians should never be bound. Remember that the Nicene Creed was taken from the Scriptures, and all councils are holy insofar as they follow the divine Word.

    Also, I am not advocating Iconoclasm - rather, the end of Iconolatria. No classical Anglican would object to a picture of Christ far up in the apse, or upon the walls of a church. The veneration thereof is the problem.
     
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  12. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I can't see anything more Classically Anglican than the Homilies, which Tract 90 quotes to make his point that veneration is not only allowed it has been a Godly practice since the earliest times of the Church
     
  13. Servos

    Servos Active Member

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    I find that British saint named The Venerable Bede in his book named "Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation" written in 8th Century in Britain in chapter XXV said:
    "... but they came furnished with Divine, not with magic virtue, bearing a silver cross for their banner, and the image of our Lord and Saviour painted on a board; and singing the litany, they offered up their prayers to the Lord for the eternal salvation both of themselves and of those to whom they were come..."
    Book I find here:
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book1.asp
     
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  14. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Dear Cousin,
    Just when was the Second Ephesus deemed heretical ? It was the translation that was faulty! That it caused a furore it is true, that the findings as received by us were rejected by many, is also true, but, it was never a cause of change of behaviour amongst the Anglican faithfull. Even though many rejected the faulty documents, it caused no change in custom & practice! At the Reformation , very little damage was inflicted compared with the damage done by the Calvinist, Cromwell ,I should imagine most of the choirs remained as they were, it was in the 17th, Century the harm was done. The seventh council has been accepted by the Church in England from its finish up to the present day, more or less! At least as far as I can see, you will have to prove you statement.
     
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  15. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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  16. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    Wow you are still trying to argue that the 39 articles says what it doesn't say based on your misguided interpretations and misunderstandings of personal issues with the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. Honestly it is a pity some of you don't put as much effort into understanding scripture as you do into the effort you put into these useless arguments about prayer books and the misinterpretation of outdated ancillary church documents.
     
  17. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The "outdated" documents like the Articles, Creeds, Homilies, etc., are based upon, drawn from, and are a brief summary of, the doctrines of Scripture. Their basis in the Word of God is the only reason I care about them, Gordon! That's why this is so important for people like me. :)
     
  18. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    [/quote]The "outdated" documents like the Articles, Creeds, Homilies, etc., are based upon, drawn from, and are a brief summary of, the doctrines of Scripture.

    Canadian Cousin,
    Never-the-less they are still the production of only two small provinces of the One ,Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. They have their place, but are small in the scheme of things and the consesus was that they had to be studied in/ or through the prism of the Seven Councils!
    If the Anglican Church is not a Communion within the Holy Catholic Church, we are noyhing! [/quote]
     
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  19. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sir, I have no wish to be cantankerous, but that attitude is exactly the cause of all problems. Locality has nothing to do with credibility. Anyway, if the Articles are small in the grand scheme, exactly what do we unify around? The Councils? Ah, but hey cannot represent the whole of Christendom - Nicaea was only consistent of 318 bishops, while the Arian councils of Arminium & Seleucia had upwards of 400! Many, many hundreds of bishops never attended, nor had delegations, to the orthodox councils. Synods produce the same documents as the 39 Articles. They are not more important or less.

    The conclusions of the Alexandrian Fathers in their school of theology became almost the entire Patristic, Catholic consensus of the entire Church on many issues. That's merely one diocese! Local belief becoming universal practice is a well-established tradition of Christianity. Without the local revelation to 12 men in one province in Palestine, there'd be no worldwide Catholic faith! Do not be phased by the efforts of relativists and anti-English people to demote the importance of your green & pleasant land. God blessed you with a good crop of holy Divines, and spread it across the world.
     
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  20. Servos

    Servos Active Member

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