My humble opinion is that we must have in mind contexts first, and secondly, we must separate theological aspect of expressing love, respect and veneration from local custom of the East. I'll start with second. In East kissing is widespread expression of love and respect to someone, much more than in the West. In Serbia, Greece, Egypt, Syria... two friends or two cousins (both Christians and Muslims) will kiss each other on the street if they did not see each other for some period. That is unimaginable in the West in such extent. If son or daughter is in America, mother in East will kiss the picture of their kids, something that does not exist in Western culture, I think. Remember the scene when Judas said whom I kiss he is the one, because kissing as a greeting is something usual in the East. So, entering the Church we kiss the Icon of Christ as a greeting. No, not at all. Kissing play absolutely no role in Divine Liturgy. We kiss icon when we enter the church, that is to say, we greet the Christ or the saint to whom is church dedicated. After the Liturgy is ended, and when we go out, we kissed once again, greet again. As we kiss our friend or cousin on the street when we meet him, we the same way greet the Christ. But, Orthodox who comes from Western culture are not obligated to do so. They have no such local custom there, they will not kiss friend or a cousin on the street. And they do not kiss the icons in Orthodox church if they don't want, although they are Orthodox. That does not mean that they do not love and respect icons. Just, expression of respect and love is different in West and East. Context we must have in mind is that iconoclasam (how much I know) did not exist in 7th and 8th centuries in the West. In the East fight against the icons was very brutal. So, the Christians also shown the radicalism against fighter of icons, and spread them everywhere in the church, on the streets, Triumph of Orthodoxy, etc. So the role of icons in East is just this: Like mother who has a son in some far away land hold his picture on the wall. Is the paper on the picture her son, or colours in photography? Certainly not. But, this picture remind her on him. And she hold this picture in high respect. More correct info than I presented you can find at 8th century saint John of Damascus in his book On Holy Images : http://www.ccel.org/ccel/damascus/icons.toc.html Orthodox point of view about Icons is also in this Serbian Church documentary in English: http://www.ikona.eparhijaniska.rs/index_eng.html This is first of seven parts from this documentary on Youtube:
Maybe it's just me but I find that the Eastern Orthodox Church is, in many respects, even more superstitious than Rome.
Senior Russian and English bishops launch Patriarch Kirill of Moscow’s first book in English 7.04.2011 Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk and Bishop Richard Chartres of London joined forces at the London Book Fair today to launch the first-ever book in English of His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia. Metropolitan Hilarion extended a special greeting to Dr Richard Chartres, the Anglican Bishop of London, who is a longstanding personal friend of the Patriarch of Moscow. He praised Brendan Walsh, editorial director of Darton, Longman and Todd for the excellent cooperation with the Moscow Patriarchate Publishing House. In reply, Dr Richard Chartres expressed his admiration for Metropolitan Kirill, as a man of courage and clear-sightedness, who has played a key role in bringing the Russian church into its front-line position in Russian society and into the wider debate on the Christian role in contemporary society. Full article: http://mospat.ru/en/2011/04/07/news39409/
In my early days as a Christian, we lived in an Orthodox community (lived in, not participated in) simply because they were large, beautiful apartments built in the 30's that had been restored. We were embraced by the community and made many friends there, even attending several Divine Liturgies, and I had many conversations with their Priest. I must honestly say though, that like the Mormon at your front door, the theology they bring to your door is quite different in actual practice. They were quick to explain their veneration of icons and how that wasn't worship (I disagree), and that it was no different than a grandparent having pictures of their children. My concern was when they talked, prayed, and sang to them repeatedly, and in one disturbing incident, the Priest had nursing mothers breast feed under a particular icon. I do acknowledge that different branches of Orthodoxy have more traditional beliefs, such as the Greek and OCA branches, and the large Greek Cathedral here in town has listed the Episcopal church as a place to receive emergency Pastoral care. Jeff
Jeff, the argument: "don't you kiss pictures of your mother & father? well, icons are the same thing!" is common among Romans and the Orthodox. It's an assumption based on sentimental attachments and cultural things that don't translate to everyone. There are no other arguing-examples that I've been made aware of, for venerating icons. The strongest one is "The 7th Ecumenical Council said so".
Actually, the "Being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses" mentioned in Hebrews, was often mentioned as reason to converse with the dead. My reply was simplistic but effective.......If I heard a rumor that the boss was going to fire me, I wouldn't plead my case through a co-worker.
Tell me what powers/abilities the resurrected have in heaven that could change the course of human events, and your scriptural reference for that power. Prayer among the living on Earth is not a valid comparison. Jeff
You have no more proof of that statement than I have for prayers to the Holy people of God, i.e. The Saints! So don't ring too many bells. It is a valid question ,How do you know? What we do have is Holy Tradition on our side and the teaching and faith of the Anglican Church for at least two thousand years. How do you support your denunciation of the practice?
With all due respect, if you're at the point in your spiritual journey where you believe that an organized pile of wood, canvas and paint has power to change the course of human lives, there isn't anything documented or otherwise that I could say to you. Jesus became incarnate to walk among us and teach by example, He prayed exclusively to the Father and attributed all power to Him. Jeff+
. Jeff If by the above you are referring to the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, then I do think that the ,Church," has the power to change the course of human lives". I believe that as Anglicans we are Members of Christ and Children of God! Further I believe we are made so by the power of our Baptism and that we are God's chosen people! But I don't believe we have the power to pick and choose what we believe, it was given to us, the faith that is, by Christ ,recorded in scripture and interpreted, explained and completed by the Early fathers in Council. We follow S.Paul's injunction, DEFEND THE DEPOSIT!
No Servos they wouldn't, these writers are not representative of the Church in this country! In the Church I attend, the first thing that strikes a newcomer are the number of Icons displayed and honoured. They are not worshipped, but due honour and respect is paid or displayed towards them! Amongst our Icons is one dedicated to S. Charles the Martyr, a monarch who gave his life in defense of the Church in England and who was , according to Ollard's ,'DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH CHURCH HISTORY", canonised by the Convocation on the restoration of the Church in England 1662! We follow the Church's teachings as gained from the Seventh Ecumenical Council. (Second Ephesus,)
Servos, Icons are not unheard of in English churches. In my Diocese the Cathedral Church has an Icon of The Virgin of Tenderness of Vladimir: http://www.flickr.com/photos/snotty7/7741643642/ (The original was written by an unknown Iconographer in Constantinople around 1125 for the Cathedral of Vladimir but is now in the Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow). Westminster Abbey and St Paul's Cathedral also have Icons.
Thank you all for your answers. I still think that East and West have just another customs regarding ecclesiall art. What was usual here, was not there, and vice versa. I think, and I don't know do we agree about that, that icon painting is very very old practice. I will lay aside in this very moment is it right or not. Something I Googled now, and probably there is more material in the net, for example is this: 1. Churches which separate because of Chalcedon in 451 (Copts, Armenians, Malankara in India, etc) have icons. So, we have icons veneration in Egypt, Syria, India in 5th century. Also, the same is with Eastern Orthodox. 2. In Liturgy of Saint John Chrisostom (also in Saint Basil the Great) is written: Καὶ ποιοῦσι σταυροὺς καὶ μετανοίας τρεῖς. Εὐθὺς δὲ ἀσπαζόμενοι τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ Χριστοῦ, λέγουσι... My free translation is: He (the priest) make a cross sign and three bows. Immediately he kiss the icon of Christ, saying... I can not find this text in English. Greek text I take from here: http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/greek/chrysostom_liturgy2.htm 3. We have important writers like saint John of Damascus and Theodore the Studite (are they considerd like relevant persons in Anglican Church I don't know). http://pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/324/texts/icons/icons.htm, this is 8th century text. 4. We have text by Eusebius of Caesarea in 4th century about Prince Avgar (lay aside is it the truth story about prince, we have 4th century text who mention that practice). 5. We have Christ Pantocrator icon, from 6th Century in Mount Sinai monastery of Saint Catherine. So, this is ancient practice. Of course, as I said, West, I think, had another view of ecclessial art and certainly icons did not exist in the West. That is no wrong too.
Allow me to ask an honest question with no malice intended. If icons are a legitimate part of our faith, and have been passed down to us as suggested, what differentiates an icon from a Van Gough, Picasso, or other fine painting? What is the process for determining what is icon and what is art? Where are these guidelines found in scripture or church writings? Do you also "venerate" relics and bones as the Eastern Orthodox do? Jeff