Ok, I'm tired of this!!

This is possibly one of the most exaggerated motifs in Scripture. Yes Christ associated with sinners....in order to redeem them. Similarly He saves the woman caught in adultery. Does He then say, "They are wrong to judge your sexuality, you are an autonomous person. Love wins." He instead instructs her to go and sin no more. It's a false dichotomy between loving the fallen and proclaiming the truth.

 

No false dichotomy. Christ supported justice, not injustice, righteousness not unrighteousness, honesty not the self-satisfied delusion of the Pharisees. He did not sin himself and never encouraged others to do so, but he associated with the 'religious outcasts' and disdained, who appreciated his ministry more than the self styled 'Righteous' who were scandalised by his 'lack of social discernment'. Luke 7:36-50.

Her circumstances may well have made repentance impossible for her, yet her sins were forgiven by Christ. Who are we to judge her unworthy of forgiveness by God?
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That word "associated" is squeaky, very oily

It may mean that he simply had them around him, and it can also mean that he condoned of their sins....

1. On the first point, sure he had some of the fallen around him, but even to say he blankly associated with them is wrong, for none of the apostles were these terrible wicked sinners... Sure you had one prostitute in a group of 5000 gathered, and maybe a couple of cowards like St. Peter was, but by and large these weren't some sort of refuse of society

2. The few sinners he saw, he most definitely chastised, reproved, and warned of hell and damnation....

Do you do that in your life Tiffy, since you are so intent on following our Saviour to the letter?

 

On your first point: All the human beings Christ socialised, rubbed shoulders with, associated or came into contact with, were sinners. Some more than others, for sure, but all 'sinners'. Being like God the Father in all respects except physically, Christ would have been "No respector of persons" Acts 10:34-35. By comparison to Christ, those he met, all of them, even the most righteous by human standards, had no reason to consider themselves acceptable social company for The Christ of God. But God being as God is, he "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matt.5:45-48. We don't make rain or sunshine but we are called upon to be as magnanimous as God is, and therefore as Christ was.

If you were referring to Mary Magdeline, there is no evidence whatever that she was ever a prostitute. That was entirely a fictitious Roman Catholic slander. I can't see how you calculate the number of prostitutes present among 5000 gathered, and at which event where 5000 were gathered? There was more than one.

On your second point: Christ rarely reproved sinners individually and criticised through parables and illustrations rather than berating specific individuals. There were occasions when He was scathing in his remarks to small groups and individuals, Matt.23:13-29, Mark 14:21.

"But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.
Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you." Luke 6:24-28.

We are in the world, but not of the world. Just as He was, in the world but not of it.

I do not condone sin. I fight valiantly against sin, the world and the Devil.
I try to love sinners, as I believe Christ did, and indeed lived with, associated with, and finally died for us sinners.

 

Once again, no one here is condemning associating with sinners. You're beating up a straw man that no one here is defending.

To pardon someone of their sins is to in fact call their sin (adultery, drunkenness, theft) sin and to instruct them to sin no more.

 

It is not our prerogative, as sinners ourselves, to tell or 'instruct' other sinners, Matt.7:5, demanding they stop sinning. That is the prerogative of Christ, through the Holy Spirit and the message of reconciliation that we preach. John 16:8. Supported and enhanced by our own conduct and example of living in the faith.
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Didn't he say, "as the Father sent me, so I send you?"
We are Christs to the world

 

Christ came to save the world not to judge it.

 

Seems like a simple Christological heresy.... it doesn't seem like you read the scriptures too closely, or are aware of these terrifying words from Our Lord:

Revelation 2:18
‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze: “ ‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead.


Revelation 3:1
You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.


Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”


Matthew 10:14-15
whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


Matthew 10:33
whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


Matthew 10:34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


Mark 9:42
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

 

John 3:11-21
Very truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know and testify to what we have seen; yet you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgement, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.​

Where there is no light there is no shadow, yet it is not the light that casts the shadow. We are called not to be the light, but to be transparent so as to allow the light of Christ to shine in us and through our lives. The good news of Jesus is powerful, positive and life affirming, and whilst there is a time to acknowledge our wretchedness, that is not where we are called to stop. The contemporary Baptism rite in Australia resolves to an affirmation and commissioning of the newly baptised:

Shine as a light in the world, to the glory of God the Father.​

 

I understand and appreciate your point, yet there is this...
Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

I might have guessed that all this would appeal to you more than John 12:47. Luke 23:34. It is easier for the self righteous to assume this did not refer to the entire human race, but only to those who hammered in the nails. Like it or not though, it was human sin, human wickedness and human self righteous prejududice and injustice that nailed him to that piece of wood, not just a few Roman soldiers.
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Maybe it would be best to add John 12:48, so we can take into account more of the context of verse 47.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
It seems apparent that Jesus was not judging people during the first incarnation, but that (as shown in verses previously quoted by others) He will judge people during the second.

We Christians shouldn't judge people, either, but we certainly can and should judge the actions people take; when those actions are sinful (particularly if they could impact the person's salvation), we should call them what they are (sins) lest the people be lulled into a false sense of security and court negative consequences at the Judgement. 1 Cor. 5:11-13; James 5:19-20; 1 Tim. 5:20.

 

John 7:24. We are not told not to judge at all. We are told to judge only with true judgement, not by mere appearances. That means that prejudicial 'judgement' of others is not an attribute of Christ, so therfore is un-Christian. Motes and planks etc.
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Discernment is a gift. Judgement is above our pay grade. The wisdom to appreciate the difference in practical living can be difficult.

 

I want to add that it's grammatically incorrect to go from:
"I came not to judge the world, but to save the world"
to
"I don't judge"

Our Lord talks about the purpose he came for, the final purpose, and that obviously was not to judge
But the question is whether he IS and DOES judge, isn't it

Just like, for a justice of the peace, that person isn't here "to judge" (ultimately) but is here to provide justice... which entails judgment, and other activities


If we read the scriptures in totality, especially the verses I cited, it is proved beyond any reasonable doubt that the Christian vocation IS to judge sometimes... but our ultimate GOAL is not to judge, bu something higher, namely, to help others be saved (as my father sent me, so I send you)... To achieve that higher goal, we should do a number of things, not *just* judge (although that's a part of it)

Thus we should judge, and love, and embrace, and chastize and condemn, and embrace, all the things that Christ had done

 

Actually, it is. Which is Paul rebukes and instructs sinners in his epistles. Which is why James does so. Which is why we are instructed to go to a brother if he sins, go to him with multiple and eventually excommunicate him if he refuses to change.

 

Actually it is not. Paul was an apostle, a rebuke is not a judicial sentence. It is our duty to be at peace with all, as far as we are able/ When that peace breaks down we are supposed to take the first steps to set things right ourselves. If that fails then we do so before witnesses. If that fails it is the church which excommunicates, not the individual against whom the offence has been committed. The church has the power to discipline and also the power to forgive. Neither should be done without due consideration of the case. And we should always judge with true judgment, not merely by appearances. We are called to be like Christ. Wise as serpents, gentle as doves. We are gospel preachers, not the thought police.
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I'd like clarification concerning how you think it is a appropriate for a Christian to handle the following situation. You're having a friendly conversation with two men who say they are Christians. The first man begins to brag about how much fun he's having by cheating on his wife; he thinks it's fine because his wife has no clue and he's "not hurting anybody." The second man says he has an "open marriage" in which he and his wife enjoy multiple partners, but they are open with each other about it and "no one's getting hurt" so why would a God of love ever object? They look at you and wait for your reaction and response. Should you:
(a) explain from the Bible that God certainly has a problem with their behavior, or
(b) agree with them that God is very understanding about such behavior, or
(c) change the subject, or
(d) ??? something else (if so, what else?).

 

Short answer (a).

Longer answer: I would not tell them that my reply to both of their amoral proclivities comes from my understanding of my master's teaching as found in the scriptures. (That would be casting pearls before swine Matt. 7:6 ). I would imply my following advice would be my own personal opinion, which they may feel free to ignore if they wish. Which of course it would be, since my opinion comes from the mind of Christ, but as a believer I have adopted it as my own opinion too. Nevertheless, my advice which would follow, would be coming to them straight from the Holy Spirit, with power to convict.

I would point out to the first man, that he is profoundly mistaken in his presumption that his behaviour 'hurts nobody'. Firstly it hurts his wife, because it is potentially a violation of her trust in him, (assuming she rather foolishly does trust him). Secondly it is a violation of his own better nature and trustworthiness. Thirdly it is potentially dangerous because his behaviour risks increasing the transmission of dangerous and unpleasant diseases which would damage both himself and anyones else he comes into sexual contact with, particularly the wife he claims to 'love'. Fourthly it is a violation against wisdom itself, and not even most fools take pride in their own foolishness.

I would point out to the second man, God has given us all freedom of choice but not all have been given the wisdom to make wise choices. That comes with practice and experience. It may be that one day practice and experience will convince him and his wife that happiness is not often obtained by getting everything we desire, but more by putting into life, everything that we are. Life can be like both a picnic basket or a sewer. We get out of it precisely what we put into it. If the pursuit of pleasure is our only goal, it will not be long before we paradoxically suffer a severe deficit in personal happiness. We often don't know when we have reached that point, just feeling vaguely 'dissatisfied' with life, unaware of our spiritual bankruptcy. We try to fill the 'gap' with other things, like sex, drugs, accumulation of 'things' or power over others but none of these bring lasting 'happiness'.

When we have reached this point, (I call it the pig pod diet awakening, Luke 15:16 ), it is time to get God involved in our predicament. I would then ask them if they have ever discovered and experienced God's love for them and all creation.

If they then say they are not interested, that is God's business and The Holy Spirit's not mine. If they say they are interested I would give them my personal testimony and invite them to discover The Holy Spirit and God's love for them, for themselves, as I do myself.

I only tell people what the Holy Spirit leads me to believe they should know.
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