My confession

Discussion in 'New Members' started by Gjoll, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Putting the church fathers aside for a moment, are you saying that the Apostle's words are less legitimate than Jesus'? We look at what the whole of the NT teaches, because it is one inspired word of God. Since Jesus is The Word, he has written all of the New Testament, by sending the Holy Ghost into the Apostles. That's what we mean by saying that it is "inspired".
     
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  2. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    Does it? Well, the Church of England, the Church of Ireland, the Church in Wales, the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Anglican Churches of Australia; New Zealand; Canada; and the American Episcopal Church do not reject women ordinations.

    I can't speak for the Anglican Church of Nigeria, but I gather that their Archbishop has said some unkind things about gays.
     
  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Gays are a different issue. I dont think you should conflate the issue.

    Maybe the Mitregate experience should give us a clue as to the CofE's thinking on women's ordination (along with it's rather treatment of other Anglican jurisdictions' duly installed leaders)
     
  4. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    First, I'm awaiting evidence that the Anglican Communion has "rejected women's ordination by a large margin". As for the gay issue, I mentioned it because one atheist tried to use what he told me was the Nigerian attitude as symptomatic of the Anglican Communion as a whole. Similarly, it is certainly possible that various Churches in the Communion reject women's ordination, but this should not be used as a device for saying that generally Anglicans are against it.

    I don't know what the "Mitregate experience is". I tried to find out about it on Wikipedia and I gather that a miter (sic) gate is some form of canal lock invented by Leonardo da Vinci. This has little to do with women's ordination.

    Please read the bracketed portion of your reply again. It doesn't make sense. (And it's "its", not "it's").
     
  5. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Member

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    It is an interesting question, isn't it? If we have apostolic succession, does the voice of our current day apostles carry the same weight as that of the earliest apostles. And, then there is the question of whether Paul's voice speaks with as much as authority as one of the 12. Also, is being "inspired" time-limited? Is God still speaking through the voices of those with apostolic succession?
     
  6. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    As you say, an interesting point. Certainly Popes JPII and Benedict XVI seem(ed) to think they could speak for God. And of course, the Abp of Wales is in the apostolic succession, and is Archbishop "by God's Divine Providence".
     
  7. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    Again, a very familiar argument within the ECUSA, yet Jesus never addressed incest or bestiality, so is that OK?

    Jeff
     
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  8. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Member

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    That is so absurd as to not even being worthy of comment.
     
  9. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    You mean it's a point you'd rather not address.

    Jeff
     
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  10. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Many thanks for the syntax lesson Seagull, but I'm aware of the correct word to use, athough my smartphone doesn't seem to. I'll try to be as helpful to you in the future. For example, there are no bracketed statements in my post. There is, however, a parenthetical statement, as in a statement placed in parens, not brackets. In that statement I left out the word "poor". Considering that you are such a knowledgeable wordsmith, I'm sure you know just where to stick it.

    As for learning the meaning of mitregate, I would suggest one consider broadening one's horizons beyond the boundaries of Wikipedia, which is a helpful tool in a pinch, but is not a serious source for credible research. A simple online search reveals that "Mitregate" is a reference to a scandal wherein PB Jefferts Schori was invited to be the celebrant at a Cof E cathedral service but was refused the use of her mitre since the CofE does not recognize her episcopal consecration. Now, I am of the opinion that no matter what your stance of women bishops is, asking a cleric, a primate no less, to serve outside of her jurisdiction and then compIaining about her choice in headware is the height of impoliteness and belittles not only her office, but the province that from which she hails. It tells me just the level of regard the CofE has for those with whom it is supposed to be in communion.
     
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  11. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    And yet you commented...
     
  12. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I managed to find an article about Mitregate in the Huffington Post, June 2010. I can't recall hearing anything about it in England. A storm in a teacup*, perhaps? And the issue of women bishops was/is so sensitive that I imagine that Rowan Williams didn't want to offend too many sensitivities and was looking for a compromise. Walking on eggshells *

    * Do you use those expressions?
     
  13. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    For a supporter of female clergy, you are suprisingly willing to toss lady priests under the bus for the sake of walking on egg-shells. It's a hat, not an assault rifle. I think that Christendom would survive.
     
  14. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    Hopefully that will all be resolved when, please God, we admit women bishops. (Target date 2015)
     
  15. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Here, here! That will fix everything I'm sure.
     
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  16. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    That's a trivial point to prove. There are more Anglicans in Africa alone than in all of the West. Non-Western Anglicans reject women's ordination. Add to that the millions of the disaffected Anglicans (the Continuum etc) in the West, as well as Anglican-orbit Protestants and now-Roman Catholics who have left because of this issue and would return if it were fixed.

    In this way it becomes quite apparent that just counting the current members of the Anglican Communion women's ordination is already rejected by a wide margin, and including the disaffected members that would be even more if this view were abolished. Contrasted to this are a small coterie of liberals who are temporarily in charge, and are using that to ruin the church and deprive the people they're serving of irreplaceable masculinity and fatherhood.
     
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  17. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I have to say that I have not examined the attitudes towards women priests in all the 30+ Churches of the Anglican Communion (have you?). As for those who have left us, well groups like the CEC and the Traditional Anglican Church or whatever it's called, are scarcely big-hitters, are they? The much vaunted "Ordinariate" is withering on the vine, and Anglicans are not, contrary to some perceptions, "leaving for Rome in their droves". There is a small flow both ways.

    But your real problem, not mine, is that there is no way that the CofE (nor the other western churches I've mentioned) are going to defrock their women priests. For a start they'd never get the necessary two thirds majorities in Synod. Thank God.
     
  18. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Hey no need to be defensive. You asked for figures showing rejection of womens ordination by a large margin, and you received it.

    Yes did you see it in my post? Just count the provinces and dioceses forbidding women's ordination next to those that allow it and you'll see it rejected by a large margin.

    What's even worse for your case that in just Nigeria and Kenya alone, there are more Anglicans than in all of England put together. Liberals are falling away into the dustheap of history, and trying to claw the Church of England with them. It is the work of Satan at all times, nothing more.

    But God won't let Canterbury fall to heresy, I am sure of it.

    I'm not talking about just the Ordinariate but the laymen who have left in much greater numbers.

    I am also talking about the Anglican-orbit Protestants who've left for apostolic male ministry in other churches.

    I am also talking about the huge nebulous cloud of disaffected American Anglicans, called the Continuum, who've left the Episcopalians in huge droves and remain restlessly without affiliation.

    I am also talking about ACNA where not only are female bishops categorically forbidden but female priests which initially got in during the first wave of fervor have ceased. From what I understand there is a moratorium on all future female ordinations while the church deliberates on this theological crisis. That's how honest people who don't have a liberal socio-atheistic agenda to push, address issues of Heavenly Matters.
     
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  19. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    As far as CEC we never left because we were never a part of Canterbury or the ECUSA, The CEC is a separate Anglican communion and huge in Africa
     
  20. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    You haven't listed the Churches of the Anglican Communion which have so far not ordained women priests, nor given evidence to back up your assertions.

    I am a liberal (catholic). I have not fallen into the dustbin of history. Neither am I an agent of Satan. Neither is my Vicar, nor are the Archbishops of Armagh, Canterbury or Wales. Please moderate your offensive language.

    He won't. I'm sure of it somehow.


    I know a few Anglicans who have moved to Rome, but not many. I know at least ten Anglicans who have joined us from Rome, and others from other churches.