Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by Traditionalist, Dec 19, 2018.
That's a pretty heavy reading assignment. How long do I have before the exam?
I have reading lists on everything, lol. I could've earned two PhD's in theology by now. I'm an amateur theologian with a deep interest in the Church Fathers, the Caroline Divines, the Oxford Movement, Mary, the Saints, the Eucharist, Sacraments, the Ecumenical Councils, Eastern Orthodoxy, Old Catholicism, and the like.
I ordered Shoemaker's book. It sounds more appealing to me than Gambero's.
The RCC owns an observatory in Arizona. Someone wrote a book suggesting that they are watching for Jesus' return via space ship.
If the Pope announces one day that Jesus has flown his flying saucer back to earth, don't believe him!
The Saucer farce Sounds like a page from Exo-Vatican.
Jesus Christ our Lord will come on a horse, “Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for he judges fairly and wages a righteous war.12 His eyes were like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him that no one understood except himself.13 He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God (John 1:1, 14). The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses. From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will tred the winepress of the wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress.16 On his robe at his thigh was written this title: King of all Kings and Lord of all Lords.” (Revelation 19:11-16)
Oh my goodness!! I come from the RCC. I've never heard that. Not to say it hasn't been written in a book, but I've never heard it with my ears from another Catholic, at least not any that I've spoken with, thank goodness. That is just crazy to me.
Yes, that's the one: Exo-Vaticana by Tom Horn. I'd forgotten the name of the book but you nailed it. Pretty wild stuff.
Indeed, and not a subject for the many, but for the few who can read it and deconstruct its faulty theology and mythos without beimg impacted by the heredoxy and mysticism. For the rest of Christendom, it is best to focus on what is noble:
“Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.” (Philippians 4:8)
Exo-Vaticana along with Daniken’s “Chariots of the gods” is what The Apostle tells us to tear down and take captive:
“We tear down arguments, and every presumption set up against the knowledge of God; and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” (2 Corinthains 10:5)
Chariots of the Gods. Wow, that brings back memories of my teen years. I read it while on a family vacation to Florida over winter break. That book certainly wasn't a faith builder!
And as for Biblical justification, what about Jesus' first miracle at the wedding of Cana? Didn't He only do it because Mary asked (actually, kinda insisted!) on it? I was always taught that was the Biblical basis for the belief in asking Mary to intercede with her Son for us.
(of course, it's also a good lesson in praying directly to Jesus ourselves and not taking "no" for an answer!)
Praying to Mary or the saints is a lot more than just 'asking' someone... It presumes that the saints are omnipresent and omniscient and can hear your prayers be they never so quiet.. In other words we begin to assign divine attributes to what are still nothing more than just human beings!
For this reason the Church has not counseled the prayers to the saints, when a much more potent, and much more realistic prayer to our Saviour seems like a better course of action
Oh yes, I do understand your position. Just pointing out that the concept of asking Mary to intercede does have a Biblical precedent, even if you disagree with the theology behind the interpretation of that Scripture.
(And also, when you say, "the Church has not counseled the prayers to the saints," you mean the particular portion of the Church you belong to ... not the universal Church going back before the Schisms, right? Because the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and at least *some* portions of the Anglican Communion *do* counsel, or at least tolerate, prayers to the saints. C.S. Lewis defended the practice, IIRC.)
Along that line of thinking, we also have a Biblical precedent for Jesus giving Mary a mild rebuke for asking Him to do something (John 2:4).
Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. (KJV)
The CEV words it this way: Mother, my time hasn't yet come! You must not tell me what to do.
It sounds like Jesus didn't approve of Mary making requests of Him.
That's true ... and yet, even though He rebuked her, He still did what she asked Him to do. Why?
But -- having said that, I hope you won't mind if I detach from this discussion, for the following reasons:
1. I'm uncomfortably realizing that it's basically hijacking the thread, and didn't mean to do that.
2. I know, from my previous "lurking" on the Forums, that this subject has been discussed ad nauseam and I'm sure we pretty much all know what the other person is going to say before we say it.
3. I caught myself thinking about it while I was supposed to be singing at church this morning (I'm a cantor) and realized that means I'm getting wayyyy too involved in it!
So my apologies for taking the thread off onto this tangent. FWIW I actually agree with some (if not all) of your objections to prayers to the saints, especially the excesses of Mariolatry. But that's for another thread, another time, another place. God bless!
I doubt your powers of prescience. (Or did you really expect me to say that?)
I respect your reasons you cited to detach.
However, unless you see this and a moderator contacts you, you are in the clear. Especially if you have stayed on subject.
If I said yes, would you take it on faith or would I have to provide documentation?
Any Medieval documents you have like The Donation of Constantine, certifying you and your family have powers od prescience will suffice.
Anyway, to circle back to the OP, I don't think you're in danger of bell if you leave one branch of Christendom for another. That makes me a heretic to a lot of people, I know, but to me the most important thing is to do the best you know how to follow Christ, check in with Him every step of the way, and ask Him to lead you in the right direction.
Then trust Him to do exactly that! Isn't that kinda the whole point of Christianity?
I've often wondered if that Donation was tax deductible ...