Is Jesus Christ Almighty God?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Rexlion, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Maybe.... but I challenge you to see if my views pass the "man in the street test" . Try it on the next two or three people you meet, see if they agree with me. In my view Christian Interpretation is biased towards what they want it to be. I presume the Bible was written for me just as much as you.

    I find Christian apologetics similar to Mormon apologetics. Christians will point to this Mormon "God given"prophecy.
    (D&C 114 11 April 1838) and say it is false prophecy because unfortunately for Patten he got shot dead on 25th October 1838.

    Now is this a false prophecy or a correct one? As the Mormons will say Patten did accompany them in spirit , (no mention of him having to be alive in their scriptures is there) and probably for good measure they will add, you don't seem very good at accurately reading or understanding scripture.

    Ps. Sorry if this sounds a bit hostile, it's not meant to be. I just get a bit frustrated at times:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I agree, God didn't intend to destroy Nineveh at that time. If He's wanted to destroy them outright, why would He bother sending Jonah to warn them? Why give them a chance to repent if He really would rather blast them and be done with it?
     
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  3. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I kept thinking you must be halfway around the world from me, so why are you online so late at night? Then I looked it up and learned that your time is actually just 7 hours different from here (we're on daylight saving time). :) So, 1/4 way around the world, or thereabout. That's practically next door nowadays.

    Personally, I'd have said it's false prophecy for the mere reason that D&C is false "scripture" and its author (a mere human) was a self-serving fraud. Comparing the lives of Jesus and Joseph Smith would be somewhat like comparing a microchip-production "clean room" :halo: to a chock-full vacuum cleaner bag after sucking up vomit. :sick:
     
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. THAT is what the whole story is about.
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  5. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I don't have much confidence in the "man in the street's" ability to read accurately or fully understand what they read, whether they be reading Scripture or The News of The World, (not that I equate the two). :no:

    The "man in the street" is not renouned for his consistently rational thought, judging from the kind of politicians he often elects. :laugh:
    .
     
  6. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    That's exactly the attitude of the pre 1500 Curia. They too had not " much confidence in the "man in the street's" ability to read accurately or fully understand what they read, whether they be reading Scripture or The News of The World" Like you they were scared of independent interpretations of the Bible. This is why it was largely left written in Latin in Western Europe, to stop the man in the street reading it and discovering their own truths.



    I tend to agree with you here, but from a textual point of view, is this a true or false prophecy? My point is, if this pericope was in the Bible, I would say it was false and you would come up with some reason why it was true. The same wording in the BoM you would probably interpret as false.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    This is an aunt sally and a straw man you are putting up to knock down and claim you have 'reasoned' your way to a conclusion.

    You know perfectly well that any text is possible to read many ways and misinterpret the meaning of, not all of which are valid or according to the author's original intentions or conveying the sense of the original text. You have given some Mormon examples yourself of twisted interpretation and false prophesy. Your quotation seems to imply that ALL interpretations, no matter how whacky, cockeyed or off the wall they may be, are equally, truthfully, valid. They simply are not.

    C S Lewis was a Professor of English Literature and he went on record as saying he was utterly amazed at the confidence with which some supposed literary critics assumed they understood what he had written. Some even seemed to understand it's meaning better than even he himself had intended.

    Exactly the same lunacy prevails with the Bible and the notion that every possible interpretation of every lunatic sect or deranged religious fanatic is equally a valid exposition of the Biblical narrative. Scripture has a limited range of possible meanings. It is not a matter of personal preference, it is a matter of discerning the author's inspired intention.

    Your straw man argument for a multiplicity of possible meanings, each decided upon by the whim of the reader is simplistic and crass. The Anglican Church no longer dictates, (if indeed it ever has), nor seeks to control what 'the man in the street' understands when he reads the Bible. That is entirely the business of the man in the street. The Anglican Church however has the right to decide what it's ministers are permitted to preach, teach and expound from the Biblical text and this will sometimes conflict with the uneducated opinions of 'the man in the street'. This however will not be, as you wrongly suggest, "to stop the man in the street reading it and 'discovering their own truths' ". It is to educate the 'man in the street' out of his ignorance, superstition and false beliefs, which may be mortally dangerous to their own and other's souls.
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  8. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Well I know how C S Lewis feels.
    I guess we will just have to disagree on what "according to the author's original intentions or conveying the sense of the original text " means . Maybe the mods might like to give us some insight here on the Nineveh issue as they seem to have special abilities in the " according to the author's original intentions or conveying the sense of the original text" issue. We can tell this from their ability to correctly discern what the N.T. writers were saying and meant on issues like, ordination of women , aspects of homosexuality and gender issues about God"

    And now for something completely different,
    Any thoughts on my observation.

    "God is all knowing;
    For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1 john 3:20.

    But does Jesus know everything? But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Math 24:36."

    Incidentally as I typed Math 24:36 I realised I had a 590 pg book "The Trinity Evidence and Issues" by Robert Morey sitting next to me, but hey this verse wasn't in the Scripture index!
     
  9. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    In the event that you missed seeing my reply (in post #7), I'll copy and paste it here. Or did you discount it for some unstated reason?
    ------------ snip --------------
    Let's talk about Matthew 24:36. Suppose you were the greatest, strongest wrestler in the world and you could very easily whup any other wrestler who entered the ring. Now suppose you had them tie one arm behind your back so you'd make yourself about equal in wrestling ability to all the other wrestlers. Would you still be a two-armed man? Yes. But you'd go through your wrestling career fighting as a one-armed man, because you'd have restrained your other arm.

    When God the Son humbled Himself to become a mortal man, He restrained Himself. He chose live life as a man, not as the Almighty. He allowed Himself to experience temptation as a man would experience it... and He resisted all temptation. He voluntarily chose to not exercise His omniscience, omnipresence, and so forth, because men don't have those characteristics. That's why they saw Jesus spending so much time in prayer; He was relying on the Father and the Holy Spirit to inform Him of what He needed to know. (That's also why they didn't see Jesus 'teleporting' Himself all over Judea or appearing physically in multiple locations at once.)

    Restraining Himself from coming down off the cross must have been particularly difficult, especially when they tried to goad Him into doing so.
     
  10. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Sorry Rexlion it's my fault I completely overlooked your post.:blush:
    Now I'll acknowledge that that the Trinity thing can be valid even though it isn't a logical thing in a 1+1=2 sort of way. As one theologian said (and I paraphrase) Unlike most other Gods the Christian God is a complicated one.
    You seem to be saying Jesus didn't know the date of his return because he chose to be a mortal man or possibly more accurately "man like". But to me this then begs the question why was he then able to forgive sin? A most un-manlike thing.

    No but lets be honest he did after the crucifiction and Moses and Elijah did before hand.
     
  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Well, the first verse you quoted obviously refers to God the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit since it refers to God not specifically to Christ. Its focus is not to make observations concerning God's omniscience but to assure believers of God's approval and providence to all who love Him. Even if our consciences are troubling us, God knows our heart's intent and accepts our sincerity of motive, because "God knows everything", even our most secret and subconscious thoughts.

    Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action. And by this we will know that we are from the truth and will reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have boldness before God; and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him. 1 Jn.3:18-22.

    The second verse you quoted is concerned with eschatology and Jesus' acknowledgement as a human being, that even he, (as a mortal man at that moment in time), did not know The Holy Trinity's appointed day and hour, set in eternity for his second coming. At the time Jesus said this God alone knew when that future event would take place, but Jesus did at least know it had been decided upon, (or foreseen), and was therefore fixed at some future date.

    “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man." Matt.24:36-39.

    The focus of the passage is about the temporal unpredictability of the second coming, not about the extent of Jesus omniscience on earth as a mortal human being. Such foresight as Jesus undoubtedly had, (according to scripture), was dependent upon his relationship with God through prayer, just as it is with any other human being, even a sinless one.

    A sinless human being would be perfectly capable of absolving others of sin if, like God, "he knew men's thoughts".

    If thou sayest, Behold, we knew not this;
    Doth not he that weigheth the hearts consider it?
    And he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it?
    And shall not he render to every man according to his work?
    Prov.24:12.

    This is with reference to God The Father or indeed The Triune God.

    Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15.

    And so was this.

    And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Matt.9:4-6.

    This was not divine omniscience on Jesus' part, but human psychological insight. There was no forgiveness of sins though for those who 'thought evil in their hearts' that day, only for the man 'sick of the palsy'.

    And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: Matt.12:25

    Same with this, not divine omniscience, just heightened human awareness of others motives and intentions.
    .
     
  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    You're right, of course. At that point Jesus was changed; His body looked the same but it had ceased to be mortal, and He was no longer acting in accordance with so many of mortal men's limitations. It makes me happy to see that you believe Jesus did move about supernaturally after the crucifixion. This implies that you do accept the idea that He rose from the dead! :yes:

    How could Jesus, as a man, forgive sins? To address your question, let me relate how I understand it, with the caveat that not every Christian sees it the same way as I do. Here goes.

    John 5:19,25-27,30 relates Jesus' words, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise....
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man....
    I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me
    .

    When we read the gospels, we see passage after passage relating the prayer life of Jesus. He spent loads of time talking to the Father and being sensitive to the Father's instructions which were transmitted via the Holy Spirit indwelling Jesus.

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit...

    Jesus is fully God and fully man. Jesus came to earth, not as God, but as 'fully man.' Although He had knowledge of His true identity (see v. 25-27 above), He was committed to living life as a man. With the guidance and enablement of the Holy Spirit, Jesus knew where He should go and what he should do. (I don't mean that the Holy Spirit micro-managed Jesus to the point of saying, "Laugh now," or "Eat in a half hour", but the important things Jesus should say and do were told to Him when He needed to know.) For example, Jesus didn't send His disciples onto the Sea of Galilee without Him just because He felt like it; He did it because He knew He was supposed to send them while He went and prayed, and then (perhaps because of instruction received during that prayer time) He knew when and how He was to join them on the water-- literally! Countless generations have benefited from learning about Jesus' walk on the water.

    1 Corinthians 12 lays out the gifts of the Holy Spirit: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, special faith, gift of healing, working of miracles, gift of prophecy, and so on. These are all gifts from the Father, through the Holy Spirit, for and upon men. Jesus was committed to living on earth as a full human being who was full of the Holy Spirit. Thus the spiritual gifts were in full operation during the mortal life of Jesus. When Jesus healed the sick, cast out demons, fed five thousand, and told the man his sins were forgiven, Jesus wasn't acting as God but as man obedient to the Father and yielded to the Spirit (He was God-who-became-man, but nonetheless He was living here as a man). He didn't descend one day out of a cloud and announce to all Israel, "I am God; come to me and I will heal you all." Instead He did things the way any mortal man fully obedient to God would do them... the way we are meant to do things, if we will be willing and obedient enough to be intimately guided and empowered by the Holy Spirit. (The vital difference between us and Jesus is, unlike Him we know for certain that we are not God, but merely His vessels of clay).
     
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