Is Genesis all literal, all allegory, or somewhere between?

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by ZachT, Jun 27, 2021.

  1. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    I can't find an on line version of that translation. Can you post the excerpt that refers to creation over 6 (or 7) days. It doesn't have to be (Stephanie?) Dalley; Tiffey has posted a different translation to the one I found.
    Version1 Version2
     
  2. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Greetings in Christ JESUS

    Reading your very important CONCLUSION about the content of the storytellers in this topic, trying to replace the Word of GOD, allow me to say , as have said in my prior posts, that the discussion is about cunningly devised fables and devilish myths, mere evil fruits from the mouths of demonic and deceiver storytellers, from whom only death sounds- Romans 3:13-14 and Ephesians 6:11-12.

    Be careful, be careful, that content has nothing to do with the Word of GOD, the official tongue of the citzens of GOD's Kingdom, I mean Genesis according topic. It's written: He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven(Ephesians 1:3) is above all. Be careful: 1Peter 5:8-9.

    Have a Happy New Year in the Peace of the Lord JESUS , which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
    Amen
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
  3. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Dalley’s translation is available on archive.org. As I clarified above, the Epic does not employ the framework of 7 days, however, there is a broad resemblance of motifs between the groups of actions ascribed to Marduk on the one side, and Elohim in Gen. 1 on the other, which I have also (partially) listed above. (These parallels are not controversial among Assyriologists, biblical scholars, and historians of the Ancient Near East.) Jon Levenson’s introduction and commentary on Genesis in the Jewish Study Bible is an excellent place to start. James Kugel’s How to Read the Bible has a very thorough discussion of these issues, written from the perspective of someone who is both a lifelong scholar and a practicing Orthodox Jew. Dalley’s own introduction in her volume of translations contains much useful information, including some observations on the common numerological features of the accounts. The aforementioned Levenson’s book Creation and the Persistence of Evil discusses all of the Bible’s creation myths in the larger context of the ancient Israelite understanding of ‘evil’z
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
  4. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Now, now, what you are saying is only about foolish content from the mouth of devilish storytellers trying to mystify the pure and true Word of GOD written in Genesis - the matter of the topic. I work with the pure and true Word of GOD, and what you have spread to confound the readers of Scriptures is from the mouth of evil. I work with what is from the mouth of good, GOD's mouth, understand? There is a great difference, understand?

    There is not evidence more powerful than the Word of GOD, the twoedged Sword.
    The Word of GOD warned that the serpent comes to cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman -the true Church of the Lord- , that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood-Revelation 12:15. But the earth will help the woman, and the earth will swallow up the flood which the Dragon comes to cast out from his mouth-Revelation 12:16. By the way, take a look in Revelation 16:13-15.
     
  5. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Another excellent book that discusses these issues, more from the standpoint of literary history than theology per se, is Stephen Greenblatt’s The Rise and Fall of Adam and Eve: The Story that Created Us.
     
  6. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Genesis was revealed personally by GOD to Moses around 2500 years after Adam, as the book of Revelation was personally revealed by the LORD to John the Apostle in the isle of Patmos around year 95AD. The most important thing now, in these current days, is to separate the wheat from the chaff, for the chaff must be burned forever by the Word of GOD - the Word is GOD - a consuming fire, understand?
    You above wrote FIRST your message based in doubtful hypothesis, and now, as is above quoted, you are argumenting and trying to make true the myths invented by storytellers, but you are confessing that what you wrote here is "SPECULATIVE.of course, but there are clues that point in that overall direction." You are being merely evasive like the cunningly devised fables of the demonic storytellers.
     
  7. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    To return to the question with which the thread began, the only parts of Genesis I can think of that appear to be “symbolic” or “allegorical” are the various dream sequences in the final portion that focuses on Joseph. The rest appears to be rather straightforward in the way that ancient myths and legends often were. So when, for example, the first creation story in ch. 1 says, e.g., “one day”, “a second day”, etc., I think we have to take such things at face value. The ancients did not have our modern understanding of “history,” and probably would not have understood the question if asked whether Genesis was “mythical” or “historical.” At the same time, ancient cultures in general were quite comfortable telling different versions of the same stories, in which not all the details agreed, without any sense that the various contradictions were a serious problem. There is evidence of both comfort and and discomfort with this ‘anthology’ approach within the canonical text of Genesis, which is one of the things the Documentary Hypothesis is meant to explain. For us, the contemporary relevance of the text is to be found in recovering as best we can what the purpose of Genesis was to its original authors, rather than trying to make the text fit a certain mold created by artificial modern oppositions.
     
  8. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Without JESUS -the beginning - was not any thing made that was made.

    And the earth was without form, and void; ...

    In what sense was the earth without form? and void?

    The Word of GOD reveals how the heavens were/are created.

    The things above are exclusive of GOD. Parallel things invented about the Word of GOD are from the Devil.

    What are the answers for the questions above?
     
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Quite correct. I does come in a passage dealing with the creation of the calendar though, (times and seasons and all), Gen.1:14-16. By the time Genesis was written down the Hebrews already had a well established calendar with a 7 day week and a Sabbath. It is more than coincidence that the Hebrew calendar coincided with the Babylonian one according to the number of secular days in a week + one special ceremonial one in each. These things were governed by phases of the same moon used for measurement of times and seasons, they both observed. The Hebrews had had plenty of time to get to know the Babylonian calendar and its workings by the time the Pentateuch was put together.
    .
     
  10. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    From a scientific point of view (not God's point of view perhaps because God's thoughts are way above and higher than ours), The earth was once dust and gas without shape or form, it existed in the void of space until gravitational and centrifugal forces acted upon it. Likewise, so was everything which has become our Solar System. Some of the larger planets in it are indeed still primarily just gas. Others rock and some may have oceans, but not many are anything like earth which providentially exists in the Goldilocks Zone of liquid water oceans.
    .
     
  11. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    Thank you.
     
  12. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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  13. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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  14. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    We are speaking of the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD-, therefore, reading your post above I would say that you should post the GOD's point, not men's / humans's point. The things you wrote, GOD makes it as VANITY. With whom took GOD counsel, and who instructed Him...and taught Him knowledge, and showed to Him the way of science?

    Isaiah 40: 21-22 -
    21 - Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning?
    22 - It is he that sitteth upon the circle -globe- of the EARTH, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens (heavens have nothing to do with sky, the physical spac e of Universe) as a CURFTAIN, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
    So, who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor has taught Him?

    My GOD said: He that hath my Word, let him speak my Word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

    Know that what matters least is what men say, after all the straw have nothing to do with wheat -human theories about the Word of GOD is good for nothing- and will be burned with fire for ever, in fact the earth and the WORKS that are therein shall be burned up, even in this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day - the LORD's Day.

    Get ready.
     
  15. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    The word commonly translated “circle” in Isaiah 40:22 does not mean “globe,” according to every textual commentary I have consulted. The image apparently is one of a flat disk, stretching in all directions toward the horizon. The same word (Heb. hug) is used in the creation account of Proverbs 8:27.

    22 “The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,
    the first of his acts of long ago.
    23 Ages ago I was set up,
    at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
    24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water.
    25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
    before the hills, I was brought forth,
    26 when he had not yet made earth and fields
    or the world’s first bits of soil.
    27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
    when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,*
    28 when he made firm the skies above,
    when he established the fountains of the deep,
    29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
    so that the waters might not transgress his command,
    when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
    30 then I was beside him, like a master worker,
    and I was daily his delight,
    playing before him always,
    31 playing in his inhabited world
    and delighting in the human race.
    playing before him always,
    31 playing in his inhabited world
    and delighting in the human race.

    * Heb. tehom
    This account very closely parallels the Babylonian cosmography referred to and illustrated previously in this thread. The LXX also translates the Hebrew as “circle;” there is an entirely different word in Greek for “globe.”
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2023
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  16. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    This is why we cannot understand one another Oseas. 'Your' understanding of 'The Word of God' is NOT GOD, it is merely YOUR understanding of the words concerning God, written on pieces of paper, and THEY are not God. Jesus Christ is God and HE is The Word.
    The fool has said in his own heart "There is no God" but it takes a complete idiot to ignore the reality of truthful scientific observations concerning God's creation, and then declare them 'a vanity'.
    .
     
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  17. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Quite so.
    h2328. חוּג ḥûg̱; a primitive root (compare 2287); to describe a circle: — compass. AV (1) - compassed 1;
    to encircle, encompass, describe a circle, draw round, make a circle(Qal) to encircle, encompass.

    He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters
    at the boundary between light and darkness.
    The pillars of heaven tremble
    and are astounded at his rebuke.
    By his power he stilled the sea;
    by his understanding he shattered Rahab.
    By his wind the heavens were made fair;
    his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
    Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways,
    and how small a whisper do we hear of him!
    But the thunder of his power who can understand?” Job 26:10-14

    The interesting thing here though is the fact that such a circle actually exists between light and darkness, and it is mostly upon the face of the waters, upon earth. It can also only be seen as a circle, from space, (or at least very nearly an exact circle, since the earth is actually a flattened spheroid, so it would be more of an elipse). The boundary between light and darkness on our Moon is likewise a circle and it is highly likely that some of the ancients had observed this and assumed the earth, (which they could not observe from space, (we may assume), was similarly constructed roughly spherically. It may even be that the writer of the Book of Job was one of these wise, astute and observant scientifically minded individuals.
    .
     
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  18. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    By your own words, you confess you have only heard to speak of GOD, but you know not Him. The Word was GOD, and is GOD, and will be GOD for ever and ever, He -the Word- has not beginning neither ending, the Word is from Eternity to Eternity. The Word - GOD the Father - was made flesh around 2000 years ago, understand? The Word is GOD - GOD the Father. John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he is discerned of no one. 1 John 2:14-15

    Yes, " The fool has said in his own heart "There is no God", in the other hand, "The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain". Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this WORLD? hath not GOD made foolish the wisdom of this WORLD? For after that in the wisdom of GOD the WORLD by wisdom knew not GOD.
    Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ? Isaiah 2:22

    It is GOD that bringeth the princes to nothing; He maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; Isaiah 40:22-23

    Isaiah 2:22 (combined with Revelation 6:15-17)
    22 - They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His Majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

    Revbelation 6:15-17
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    17 For the great Day (the LORD's Day, the seventh and last Day) of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Be careful or then get ready
     
  19. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly the Word was made flesh, not the Word was made scripture or The Word was made paper and printer's ink. It is Jesus Christ's words than shall never pass away, not the bible in your pocket or on your bookshelf.
    Why do you keep quoting this passage of scripture? Might it be out of a sense of superiority concerning your own salvation or a notion of a lacking in others who may sometimes disagree with your assertions? Discernment of another's salvation status is not listed as a gift of the Spirit, it is merely an indication of haughty arrogance, unless truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was qualified, knowing the hearts of men, you and I are not.
    Misquoting St Paul does not make your imagined point Oseas. What Paul is saying here is that human philosophy has led many of those who place their trust in it AWAY from an understanding of God and God's ways. Wisdom was with God in the beginning. - He is not attacking wisdom as such, and not denegrating scientific research into the natural laws of God's creation. Those who ignore or disparage knowledge lack insight and become more stupid, not wiser. This applies to ALL forms of knowledge, just knowledge in general, not specifically forbidden knowledge. (Which you erroniously are seeming to consider 'scientific' knowledge to be). THAT is only the wisdom of fools when they conclude from it that there is no God, when it has actually proven nothing of the sort.
    .
     
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  20. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Revealing His own Person, by writing, or by words, here's what the Word said: Behold, a virgin shall conceive (the Word, the Omnipotent, who is the Spirit of prophecy, does impossible things), and bear a SON (a conception specifically to this SON), and shall call His name Immanuel, which means GOD with us. Here JESUS - the I Am - was still in the bosom of the Father, even in the bosom of the Word, still in the written Word, only around 700 years later the Word was made flesh-the only One, IT MEANS THAT the Word-GOD the Father-, AND the Word, i.e. GOD was made flesh-GOD incarnated, even the Son of the Word-Isaiah 7:14- , BOTH ARE ONE. In fact, before Abraham was, I am, JESUS said.
    JESUS already was in the bosom of the Father-the Word- atually JESUS was with the Word-the invisible GOD, GOD the Father-, before Abraham was.

    In fact, no man has seen GOD at any time, because the Word is GOD, great mystery. The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared Him. JESUS said to the Jews: John 8:17-19: -
    17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
    18 I am One that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    19 Then said the Jews unto JESUS, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. No man hath seen GOD at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared Him.

    Matthew 11:27 -
    No man knoweth the Son(the Word made flesh), but the Father (the Word) ; neither knoweth any man the Father(the Word), save the Son(the Word made flesh), and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. (Yeah, to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him, i.e. reveal the invisible GOD, the Word.)

    What you interpret from the Word of God-the Word is GOD-, that's funny, it's ridiculous, it seems you only know the letter of the Holy Scriptures, but know not GOD, the Spirit, your words or your interpretation of the Word by the letter is for death, only the Spirit gives life, understand?
    Well, the letter kills, only and only the Spirit (GOD is Spirit) gives life. Speculations, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, and your own opinion based on the letter of Scripture, they mean nothing and they are good for nothing . What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD - the Word is GOD.

    Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, INVISIBLE, the only Wise GOD, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen.