Interpreting prophecies

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by Rexlion, Aug 24, 2020.

  1. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    An interesting coincidence this though.

    It's difficult to estimate the number of deaths due to radiation sickness cause by the Chernobyl disaster because most of the data remains a closely guarded secret. If it is indeed a precursor to apocalyptic disaster though it would be a good illustration of the way in which such visionary prophesies may have a 'metaphorically' slack fit with the possibly actual reality. Though a reactor fire is not a star being hurled to earth by an angel, it could be the result of human incompetence caused by 'spiritual wickedness in high places', which figuratively may amount to much the same thing and it is in fact nuclear fission, which is rather like nuclear fusion, which is what actually goes on in a 'star'.
    .
     
  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    What are we supposed to believe concerning the time of Jesus' second advent?

    In Matt. 24 (quoted in a previous post) the disciples expressed their concern and desire to know what would be the signs of Jesus' return. This was an important matter to them. Jesus thought it was important also, for He spent some time explaining about the things that would take place before He returned. It is worth noting that Jesus mentioned several things (earthquakes, wars, etc.), but there was one thing He really, really emphasized: beware of deception.

    Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many....

    Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many....

    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Jesus does not want His people to be caught unaware. He repeatedly warns of the danger of deception. Deception is an extreme danger.

    We know the ultimate source of deception. It is Lucifer, also called Satan and "that old serpent". 2 Cor. 11:14 says that Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Lucifer was made in a form both splendid and beautiful (Ezek. 28:13-19 makes allegorical reference to him) and was present in the garden of Eden. Could he have taken on the form of a serpent? We can't rule it out entirely; Scripture says that angels can take the forms of men and be 'entertained unawares' by us (Heb. 13:2), so we don't know what constraints of appearance (if any) Lucifer and his fallen angels may be under. For all we know, they might be able to assume any form ranging from an animal, to a horned demon, to a space alien, to an incredibly photogenic human. Whatever their form and manner of speech, their purpose will be to deceive people from the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They will find their most ready subjects among those who are not alert, people who watch neither for Satanic deception nor for the second coming of Christ.

    Revelation was written to warn us about the last days before Christ's return. Revelation identifies three primary characters who will strive to deceive all men in those final hours. The book describes Lucifer as a dragon (Rev. 12) and his two principal henchmen as "beasts." The first beast (Rev. 13:1-10; Rev. 19:19) is said to be a leader of the kings of the earth, a leader who makes war against the saints and overcomes many of them; he appears to be a leader of governments and is thought by some to be "the Antichrist." The second beast (Rev. 13:11-17; Rev. 19:20) has the power to perform great signs and wonders, and he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles (Rev. 13:14); he appears to be a religious leader. This latter person, sometimes referred to as "the false prophet," will induce people to worship the governmental leader; this makes sense if the populace is led to believe that the latter (the "Antichrist") is going to work some manner of 'salvation' for mankind, be it salvation for them in particular or for the planet in general (perhaps in terms of climate, ecology, or overpopulation).

    As a part of the effort to induce universal obeisance to himself and his agenda, the Antichrist will oblige every person to accept an identifying mark on the hand or the forehead (Rev. 13:16-17), without which a person may not conduct monetary transactions (including, presumably, at the grocery store). Given the choice between accepting this sign of allegiance or starving, who would willingly hold out? But Rev. 14:9-11 warns us, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. This appears to be a dire warning and caution to all Christians that we must not give in to the directive. To be preserved by Christ unto the end, we must not turn toward the deceiver in an effort to save our own flesh from suffering and death. As Jesus said, In that day... Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it (Luke 17:31-33). No wonder Jesus called it the time of "great tribulation" (Matt. 24:21).

    Jesus wants His people to be forewarned and forearmed with the knowledge of the dangerous things that would transpire just before His return. He also wants His people to be alert and watching, constantly 'on the lookout,' for His coming. For if Christians believe that God is far away and that Jesus' sudden return is likely to be thousands of years distant, it will be easy for them to give in to the weakness of the flesh and to rationalize that "it's okay to pretend I'm loyal and worshipful toward this false one, because God will understand that I have to eat." But if the nearness of God and the sudden, imminent return of Christ are uppermost in the conscious mind of a believer, the temptation to succumb to the needs of the flesh will be easier (though still by no means easy) to resist. And if the believer is forewarned and can recognize the signs of the end and the "mark of the beast" when it is presented to everyone, the warning of Revelation 14:9-11 will strengthen his resolve even more.

    So it is incumbent upon every Christian to know the signs of the end as the Scriptures teach them, to watch expectantly for them, and to be always watchful for Christ's sudden return.

    Mat 24:42-25:13 -- Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants (or turn in his neighbors for noncompliance with Antichrist-worship?), and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
     
  3. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Today's first reading in our liturgy was from Isaiah 66.
    Isa 66:6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
    Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
    Isa 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
    Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
    Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
    Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
    Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
    Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
    Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
    Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
    Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
    Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
    Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
    Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh
    .

    I thought to myself how splendidly this unfulfilled prophecy ties in with so many other Bible prophecies. For example, Rev. 21 foretells of the passing away of the old earth & heaven and the coming down from heaven (to the new earth) of the new Jerusalem, in which there will be no more sorrow or death. Isaiah foretells, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream (Gentiles will be included as residents of this new Jerusalem)...and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem...For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD.

    Revelation also agrees with what Isaiah says, how God will render his anger with fury, and his rebuke as flames of fire as he meets the armies of unbelievers in battle and lays them waste... and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
    Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    This passage in Isaiah also comports with the prophecy found in Zechariah 14:16- And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    Isaiah's prophecy says, I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory...shall all flesh come to worship before me.

    There can be little doubt that these prophecies foretell a time when Jesus has returned, the adversary and all unrighteousness are permanently banished, and God lives & reigns among His people in new Jerusalem on the new earth.

    And yet, some people maintain that Jerusalem (in Isaiah, in Revelation, and in many other prophetic scriptures) is not meant literally but is merely a symbol for "the Church." Why is this? How did this interpretation come about?

    The answer is quite easily found in history. Jerusalem was invaded and the temple was utterly demolished in 70 A.D. The people of Israel were scattered to the four winds as they fled for their lives. After a couple hundred years went by and there was not one sign (not the least indication) that Jerusalem would (or even could) ever again become the habitation of the Jewish people, the churchmen who read the numerous prophecies of God's future plans for Jerusalem and for Israel were faced with an awkward problem: in the light of what they observed, how could they reconcile those prophecies and support them? How could they refute arguments that the prophecies were demonstrably false because God never did and never would fulfill them? How could they shore up the reliability of the scriptures? The only logical answer (at that time) was to spiritualize them, to say that they were all symbolic of the church and therefore fulfilled in the church. It was either that, they thought, or admit that God "blew it" because Jesus never returned while Jerusalem still stood. These good fathers were doing their best to fight off the critics who were saying that the Second Advent was just a bunch of malarkey and that the God of the Bible was no more dependable than Zeus or Diana or whoever. Thus, "Jerusalem" and "Israel" became symbols or euphemisms for the church, the "people of God."

    But those churchmen underestimated the power of Almighty God, who can raise dead men from the grave, resurrect entire cities, and restore nations. In 1948 the nation of Israel came back into existence, and by 1967 Jerusalem was restored to them. It was totally unheard of and unthinkable for a nation be wiped out of existence for (far) more than a millennium and yet, in a single day, once again be a nation! Yet that is what God did for Israel, and that is what Isaiah prophesied: Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?
    Such is the miracle-working power of the God whom we serve.

    What of the Jewish temple? It does not exist. Yet we hear that the orthodox Jews have remade all the temple worship implements, the special dyes for the fabrics, etc. They even have the red heifers. Everything is ready and waiting for the rebuilding of the temple structure and the resumption of Jewish sacrificial worship. The God who is able to rebirth a city and a nation to fulfill prophecies is surely able to bring about the restoration of a temple that fulfills prophecies, too. God's arm is not too short! And we should not disbelieve or distort His prophetic words just because we cannot imagine the fulness of God's plans and purposes behind such a development. If He says it shall be, that is enough.
     
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  4. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    How do we know that Rev. 21 refers to a literal city, as opposed to a mere symbol for "the church"? Let's look at it.

    Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
    Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
    Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
    Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
    Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
    Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
    Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
    Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
    Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
    Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
    Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life
    .

    Have you ever heard of a symbol that had specific measurements? Or that had a wall and gates? Can a symbolic city be garnished with gems? Of course not. Have you ever stopped to wonder why God had John include all these physical details and characteristics in this prophetic account? After all, "twelve thousand furlongs" and "144 cubits" doesn't spiritualize very well! Plainly, God had John account for the physical size and appearance of the new Jerusalem for the following important reason: God foreknew that doubters and naysayers would come along and deny the reality of this splendid city to come, so He included the physical details as evidence of its literal, physical reality.

    Now I will grant that verse 9 can confuse some folks. The angel said, come and I'll show you "the bride, the Lamb's wife." But then he showed John the city. Is the city itself the bride? No, it can't be. Look at verses 24 and 27: the redeemed of God, the church, shall walk in the city and in the illumination of God; they (the church) are the only ones who can, and will, enter the city (v. 27). If John's vision included a view of redeemed believers walking within the city, he does not say so in so many words, but it is quite conceivable that he did see this. But even if he did not, we do not have sufficient reason to assume that the city is the people, and we actually have scripture saying otherwise.

    ================

    Those who spiritualize "Jerusalem" to mean "the church" sometimes also point to Galatians 4:25-26, but regrettably this requires them to interpret the verses out of context. Let's look at the passage.
    Gal 4:21-26 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

    Let's stop and think a moment. What was the letter to Galatians all about? What was its purpose? It was written to correct a specific error: some of the Galatians were trusting in faith + works for salvation. Was it written to teach them how to interpret prophecy? No, that was never its purpose. Now look at what it says. Abraham acted out of his own strength and ideas (works) to try to get a son (heir) in fulfillment of God's promise, and it was a huge mistake; this is an allegory for 'trusting in works for salvation'. Later, God gave him a son supernaturally through Sarah; this is allegorical for 'trusting God alone for salvation'. The former leads to slavery (to sin), while the latter leads to liberty in Christ. In this context, the letter goes on to describe Hagar as "in slavery" and representative of bondage to the law (delivered on Mount Sinai), and Jerusalem as "free" and "our mother" because Jerusalem represents (in this allegory) the Jewish nation whom God chose and blessed, saying that they would rule over Hagar's descendants. Jerusalem is also the place where Jesus preached justification by faith and where He freed us (at the cross) from bondage to the law's death penalty. But does this mean we should substitute "the church" in every prophecy about Jerusalem? The letter to Galatians wasn't teaching us that. The allegory used in Gal. 4 was specific to the topic at hand: salvation is by grace received only through faith, and attempts at self-justification through works always results in bondage to the law, which condemns.

    ==================

    The spiritualizing interpreters sometimes will also cite Hebrews 12, so let's have a quick look at that, too.
    Heb 12:16-25 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

    The incorrect interpretation focuses on verses 22-23: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus...
    Again we must ask, what is Hebrews trying to communicate? Is it meant to teach a particular way of interpreting prophecies about Jerusalem? It is not. That would be a distortion and an out-of-context interpretation of this reference to the new Jerusalem. This portion of Hebrews is exhorting the readers to live sanctified lives; we can see this in verses 1-16, and it reiterates this point in verse 26 (as soon as it's finished pointing out why the reader should fear God while looking forward to reward, the classic stick-and-carrot argument). The interpretation equates things that are not the same; it assumes that heavenly Jerusalem = the assembly of the firstborn = the righteous. Yet it conveniently leaves out the "innumerable angels" and Jesus, which are most certainly not the same things as the righteous believers! If one is to interpret heavenly Jerusalem as "the church" and the righteous, then one is distorting the scripture; this is really a list of several things, associated but differing. Equating all of them does violence to the verse, and it also requires us to equate the list of things in the converse (v. 18-19): For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg... We can plainly see that fire does not equal darkness, neither of which equals a tempest, nor a trumpet blast, nor an awe-inspiring voice. This is another list of things, associated but differing. Therefore, going back to v. 22-23, Jerusalem is not meant to be another word for the righteous believers, the church; the thrust of verses 17-25 was to persuade obedience with a carrot-and-stick rationale, not to teach prophetic interpretational methods.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  5. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    The LORD said: Matthew 5:v.5 combined with Revelation 5:v.10

    Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Mat.5.v.5
    And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev. 5:v.10

    Question:
    How can the meek inherit the earth?
    The answer is here: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts. - Zechariah 4:v.6

    Zechariah 4:v.1 to 6

    verse 1 - And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a MAN that is wakened out of his sleep.

    verse 2 - And (the angel) said unto me, What seest thou?
    And I said, I have looked, and
    behold (1) a candlestick all of gold
    with (2) a bowl upon the top of it,
    and (3) his seven lamps thereon,
    and (4)seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

    verse 3 - And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

    Interpreting the above Scriptures:
    1 - Candlestick is the Church(Revelation 1:19)of the LORD- His body;
    2 - with a bowl upon the top of it: - the bowl is for storing and conserving the oil produced by the two olive trees to the Candlestick-that is for the anointed Church of the LORD;
    3 - and his seven lamps thereon: - the seven lamps are the seven Spirits of God - Revelation 4:v.5;
    4 - and seven pipes to the seven lamps which are upon the top thereof: the 7 lamps - 7 spirits of GOD - are placed on the top of the pipes to enlighten the Church of the LORD mainly in this time of Apocalypse - the END of the times and establishment of GOD's Kingdom Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts, and confirmed by Matthew 5:v.5 combined with Revelation 5:v.10, among other biblical references.

    verse 4 - So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

    verse 5 - Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

    verse 6 - Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.


    Revelation 11:v.15 to 18

    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords
     
  6. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Reading the Word of GOD, a sharper than twoedged Sword, I wonder: What is now LITERALLY fulfilling as a signal of the beginning of the end of the current Devil's world, and of JESUS coming?

    Well, what you all know, and I understand by the Word of GOD -the Word is GOD- , is that before the END there is FIRST a precedent period called "the beginning of sorrows". JESUS listed several events to happen exclusively in the beginning of the sorrows-Matthew 24:3-8, but it still is not the END, but a precedent period of the END. By the way, this precedent period is the beginning of the ETERNAL chastisement. In fact, the ETERNAL punishment of all nations it had a deadline to start, not to finish, for it is for ever and ever. I must say that it is already started, but it will NEVER end.

    Now, within this environment of punishments and pains, and the collapse of the Devil's world, the false messiah of the Jews, as you know, will manifest himself, as JESUS said to the Jews -John 5:43-47, combined with 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, and Revelation 13 :11-18, among other biblical references. Take a look.

    Thus, in the midst of severe chastisement and great suffering in all nations due the wrath of the Lamb, we will soon see two Beasts reigning on Earth:

    1 - the old Beast of the Sea;

    2 - the Beast of the earth (Israel), from then on will begin the period of the last week(of years), the 70th week Daniel 9:27, and each Beast will reign for 3.5 years-42 months-or 1260 days - and who will first rule the 5th and last kingdom of Satan-Daniel 2:41-44- is the Gentile Beast from the sea.

    Then Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 13:5 will begin to be LITERALLY fulfilled as to the first period of the last week. The worst of all punishments will come from the beginning of the 2nd half of the week, with the establishment of the Abomination of Desolation for 1290 days-Daniel 12:11;
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. ( Oh yes, blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day 1335. Hallelujaaah!!!

    Get ready
     
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    How do you square that with the fact that the heavens and the earth themselves will 'end' and new ones will be in their place? If the punishment of the nations never ends how can a numberless multitide of nations be worshipping the Lamb upon the throne?
    .
     
  8. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Good and very interesting questions. In JESUS, the our GOD created the 1st, 2nd and 3rd heavens, and the heaven of the heavens, so by the Word of GOD-yes, by the Word of GOD- were created (or PLANTED-ISAIAH 51:16) four heavens, right? By the way, remember that GOD "calleth those things which be not as though they were"-Romans 4:17, and the things which are seen were not made of things which do appear-Hebrews 11:3.

    That said , which of the four heavens above cited "were by the same Word kept in store, and reserved unto FIRE against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men" as is written in 2 Peter 3:v.7? Yes, which of the four heavens that were planted-Isaiah 51:16- will be burnt by FIRE? Please, be careful with imaginations, conjectures, suppositions, guessing, opinions, for those kind of speculations is good for nothing, they are a stumblingblock.

    How can you, as a believer in Christ JESUS and knowledgeable of the Word of God, ask this question, if it has no biblical sense, it is a mere fruit of your imagination? Do you not know or have you not yet learned from the Word of God that only the righteous are saved, and are saved by faith in JESUS Christ, and only the unrighteous, the wicked, the unbelievers, will be condemned to eternal perdition? Have you never read? Who on the right hand of JESUS, on the right, who on the left, on the left, and to these on the left hand shall JESUS say: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers-Matthew 25:41 combined with 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. Check them. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. It's that that will occur in this Day of Judgment that is -the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium- and perdition of ungodly men" as is written in 2 Peter 3:v.7. By the way, if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    Genesis 18:22-23: -
    22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
    23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

    Daniel 12:1-3 and 10-11
    12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake(there will be resurrection in this current time, or in this seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day)), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    Revelation 21:8
    8 - But the fearful(the cowards), and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2022
  9. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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  10. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    Recently I saw that more people are estimated to have died due to radioactive products released by burning coal; it's just that they are more diffuse. Can't remember where I saw it and not really motivated to go looking.
     
  11. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    The thread has been cleaned up.
     
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