Maybe all these extraneous practices are because of gentile converts to Christianity then. I too find it hard to believe Jews in the OT prayed to Saints and bowed before statues or icons or what have you.
Exactly. You typically don't hear about this sort of thing unless it's from some obscure mystical Hasidic sect in Israel, or New York. It's not in the standard siddurim and most (practicing) Jews would tell you the practice is contrary to Torah. It isn't allowed in Islam either but there are mystical sects who claim that intercession is real and effective. Instances like these are the exception which proves the rule: monotheism = monolatry. "We believe in one God" means exactly what it sounds like, and Catholicism and Orthodoxy muddy the waters with all the devotion given to saints.
That is exactly right. It is an import from paganism, all the way down to the particulars. It is no accident that the center of Marian piety in the fifth century was Ephesus, the city of Diana (mentioned, among other places, in the book of Acts itself). It was the council of Ephesus that defined the BVM as "Theotokos", which occasioned the longest running continuing schism in church history. (No one today thinks modern non-Ephesians - what used to be called "Nestorians", a label they reject - are actually heretics.)
It’s still there, which is surprising giving how much of the rest of medieval Roman Catholicism has disappeared. The rosary is one big litany to Mary; Pope John Paul II even composed some extra parts, to add even more to it. Then you have the invocation of the saints in the Missal, and thus every single time the mass is done. It’s also in the Catechism on a formal level. One couldn’t sneak into the RC church without fully endorsing and accepting this practice top to bottom.
Don't forget the Confiteor. It's also in the Liturgy of the Hours (viz., Roman Catholicism's anemic attempt to imitate what the Book of Common Prayer does for the Daily Office).
I don’t really see issue with Theotokos, I think it is to assert the divinity of Christ. It’s just so weird how people that correctly defined the trinity and christology also fell into pagan practices…..
Well, Jews and Muslims would say it's all polytheism. And I think there are ways of understanding the Trinity that are definitely polytheistic (e.g., "social" trinitarianism).
Although I’ve one been to a few catholic masses, I have never seen an elaborate Mary prayer. Probably only on the Mary feast days. Also what does the invocation of the Saints say? I either haven’t been paying attention or I didn’t see much of an issue with it lol. If you ask me, the history of the rosary is super weird. All the way down to it being revealed as a devotion by a Marián apparition. And the popes, some of them have had an utterly unhealthy obsession with Mary. I don’t get what is with this obsession to give glory and honor to anyone but God. Some of the things the EO say are off putting too. Like Mary is the only perfect created creature and has reached the highest level of Theosis. Only God can understand the glory of Mary, as if she is some sort of divine being. I was reading something I think Dr. Pusey wrote about Mary worship in the medieval Roman church. They said that Mary was co present in the Eucharist, that all prayers in church should be addressed to Mary. Instead of Our father we should say Our lady, etc. The Romans have come a long way to say the least, although still entrenched in Mary worship. I wonder why they are so adamant that the church never changed it’s teaching. Clearly it has…
I don’t know what that is. Google says the 3 persons of the trinity are in a loving relationship as God. How is that polytheistic ?
From the Rosary - which used to be said by parishioners back in the days when the Latin Mass was the norm: Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae, Amen ("Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."). Another example is the Litany of Loreto: Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy. Lord have mercy. Christ hear us. Christ graciously hear us. God, the Father of heaven, have mercy on us. God the Son, Redeemer of the world, God the Holy Spirit, Holy Trinity, one God, Holy Mary, pray for us. Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of virgins, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church, Mother of Mercy, Mother of divine grace, Mother of Hope, Mother most pure, Mother most chaste, Mother inviolate, Mother undefiled, Mother most amiable, Mother admirable, Mother of good counsel, Mother of our Creator, Mother of our Saviour, Virgin most prudent, Virgin most venerable, Virgin most renowned, Virgin most powerful, Virgin most merciful, Virgin most faithful, Mirror of justice, Seat of wisdom, Cause of our joy, Spiritual vessel, Vessel of honour, Singular vessel of devotion, Mystical rose, Tower of David, Tower if ivory, House of gold, Ark of the covenant, Gate of heaven, Morning star, Health of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Solace of Migrants, Comfort of the afflicted, Help of Christians, Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Prophets, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of all Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen assumed into heaven, Queen of the most holy Rosary, Queen of families, Queen of peace. Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, spare us, O Lord. Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, graciously hear us, O Lord. Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Let us pray. Grant, we beseech thee, O Lord God, that we, your servants, may enjoy perpetual health of mind and body; and by the glorious intercession of the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, may be delivered from present sorrow, and obtain eternal joy. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
"Persons" in classical trinitarian usage doesn't mean individuals with distinct minds or wills like it does when talking about human persons in modern parlance. Each Person just is God, and yet each Person is not identified with either of the other two.
For anyone else that’s interested, I’ve found this: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/invocationofsaints.aspx Saints Basil (330 ad) and chrysostom (407) are directly quoted as approving intercession of the saints. For example, Basil letter 360: “I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honourand kiss the features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.” Does this not sound a little bit anachronistic in the 4th century? Is there any way to prove if this letter is false? I feel like I can’t trust any of these websites. The apostles handed down icons? It all sounds so fake
Doesn't the quote from St. Basil sound a little too good to be true if you're looking for evidence of later "Orthodox" teaching in an early Father? Epistle 360 is actually spurious. Eastern Orthodox sites are notorious for relying on bad scholarship and inauthentic sources. The St. John Chrysostom quote (note xxi) is said to be from Adversos Judaeos - "Against the Jews", the same series of orations I mentioned earlier. Hardly a source I'd want to claim to support any position, but it does give a clue as to why the Church began to want to push the practice.
It does. But why are they so ingenious? This isn’t Christian at all.Do you know if the quote by chrysostom is spurious too? I don’t know how to go about checking it
Adversos Judaeos is available on Amazon. The quote is genuine but it's not from the Homily that the website says it's from. It's from Homily 8, not Homily 6. This is how the website quotes it: And this is the actual, unedited quote: Notice anything missing in the first quote? These are execrable sentiments, to be sure (and which, incidentally, still have nothing to do with the topic at hand: invocation of the saints...Chrysostom is referring to types and patterns of piety, not to specific individuals; he's saying "follow the example of the martyrs, saints, etc."). But remember, he's a "saint". Whoever wrote that piece on that website is either misinformed, incompetent, or dishonest.
Amazing, isn't it? The quote has nothing to do with intercession of the saints, and they even got the citation wrong. It would almost be funny if one didn't see this sort of thing over and over again from the same people.
Specifically, those who have read the epistles in their original language have said that the vocabulary in Letter 360 (among others), doesn't match that found in the letters that we know came from Basil's hand. I'm not aware of any reputable scholar today who maintains that the letter is genuine, and if there are any, I would like to know.
Highly doubt it. It sounds like modern EO. I have yet to find a single quote from an early church father supporting intercession then. I feel it’s so disingenuous to post the quote of chrysostom so out of context. I believed them because they are Christians, why would a fellow Christian lie to me right ? So if it’s not basil, chrysostom, then when did this saint intercession start? 600 ad I’m guessing? Was this a significant point in history? A lot of pagans converting maybe?