inerrancy of the New Testament

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by apologetic, Feb 20, 2017.

  1. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that context of clarification LL. That is a view I would find far more consistent with the Thirty Nine than I imagined you were presenting - and was a bit shocked by. The sense in which Inerrancy and Infallibility have been pushed in the Australian Anglican scene removes all of the context that is embraced in this paragraph - and the paragraphs that surround it - and ends up in a trenchant legalism.

    Psalm 137 of course is a case in point. As a song of lament from a people in exile it makes a lot of sense, as a justification for the bombing of places it makes no sense (to me at least). Scripture does need to be understood in terms of Literary and Historical Context, Church and Tradition, and we need to ensure that no expounding of the text should be repugnant to another text.
     
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  2. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    A text outside of context is just a pretext. I believe Sacred Scripture is infallible but I make no guarranties about interpretation.
     
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  3. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I was always taught a text out of context is a con.
     
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  4. Madeline

    Madeline Well-Known Member

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    Although perhaps our church is not pan-Anglican, our humour is pun-Anglican.
     
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  5. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    I knew you guys waxed lyrical, but I didn't realise you were such comedians. Virgin' on the ridiculous, like a nun riding a mule!!!!
     
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  6. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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  7. Shane R

    Shane R Active Member

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    A short quote from my Koine Greek Primer:

    We believe that just as Christ became fully physical in the person of Jesus, so the New Testament documents are a fully physical manifestation of the Spirit of Christ. Modern theological liberals believe that the connection between the spiritual and the documents themselves is purely accidental; that is, a man can just as easily come into contact with God by meditating upon the mantras of Shirley McClain or Karl Marx. Modern fundamentalists believe that the documents are so holy and “inspired” that they never really come into contact with any physical aspect of mere literature at all. Stripped of all physical landmarks, the ordinary propositional content of these documents is lost in a sea of conservative existentialism. And in both cases, the Liberal and the Fundamentalist - the Jesus which emerges has no contact with history, and looks very much like a folksy pre-suppositional projection which these interpretive communities have brought to these documents in the first place.

    If we believe these things, all the proficiency in Koine in all Christendom will not help us to understand what the men of the New Testament documents are saying. But if we become as ordinary children, that is, if we drop our super-sophisticated theories about how inspiration works and approach this Koine conversation by considering, in progressive order, the physical, literary processes by which it is constructed, we will, almost effortlessly - with the simplicity of a child - find ourselves in the very presence of the Jesus of history, the holy grail of modern biblical criticism. This is essential. We must first discover the physical literary forms - the physical words, the basics of epistemology and presuppositions, genre, authorship, sitz im leben, etc. And this we will do, if God permit.
    (The book was the professor's draft and has not hit the presses yet, but it will be released as The Koine Conversation by Can. Paul K. Hubbard, D. Th.)
     
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  8. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

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    There is an apologist online whose blog I was reading, and I was startled when I read this:

    I don't see what is wrong with the bible's cosmology. I assume his view might have to do with misunderstanding something as simple as the idea of whether the bible teaches geocentricism (answer: it speaks phenomenologically. I find that answer reasonable enough) or whether the rabbit actually chews cud (rabbits do it in captivity when starving, which fits with the context of the verse where it's mentioned, that man does things he normally wouldn't during times of desperation. These things are not errors, yet I see some 'apologists' who are otherwise smart people throwing in the towel and saying they are in fact wrong because they don't care. One forum I went to was filled with fairly competent apologists who unfortunately were possessed with a spirit of humanist perversity. They always had to feel they could answer something on the fly due to a lack of humility to trust God 'as if all men were liars' when confronted with a situation where the face-value evidence seemed to be against the bible. They also held to other liberal perversities, although ironically not same-sex marriage or other controversies, but yet there was a very brooding and peculiar anti-God spirit amidst this facade of pious Christianity. Unfortunately, many emerging apologists are buying into it and promoting this trash, and I pray that God will continue to rebuke and correct them, and drive this wicked spirit out of the Christian world before it gets out of hand. Having something as precious as apologetics get perverted with arrogance and lack of trust in God needs to be dealt with through constant prayer. I was hurt very deeply by the attitude of the people on the forum, and I believed God answered my prayer when I told him to rebuke those who would listen and drive out those who resisted and continued to hurt seekers by a hateful kind of debating that had no love. You had to see it to really get a sense of the pride and hypocrisy of these 'Christians'. My prayer was answered when the site lost its entire records and backup history shortly after, and the community that was so toxic began to scatter. A former member told me the original owner left the site, giving it over to some friends, because they became even more perverse in their theology.

    As for this apologist, I have no hate for him because I felt he has some sincerity, but I have ignored him on Facebook (he was part of a group I was in) and avoid his material because I feel there is better, more faithful apologia out there for me to study, and I felt a really uncomfortable vibe coming from him reading his blog and profile.
     
  9. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Scripture teaches God does not lie, indeed that is impossible for God to lie. Therefore the claim that God used lies and untruth as a "springboard to teach...theological truths about Himself" cannot be sound. Eating fruit from a poisonous tree is something man is prone to doing, not God, if you get my drift.
     
  10. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    God has for nearly 2000 years used an 'imperfect and fallible church' to teach theological truths about himself. There can't therefore be anything very difficult or hampering for Almighty God in that, God is after all Omnipotent and therefore very capable. Can we therefore assume that it is not necessarily essential that the Bible be 'inerrant', 'perfect scientific truth' or 'completely without error or fault', for Almighty God to similarly, successfully, use it as "a springboard to teach . . . theological truths about Himself and what God, in Christ, has done for us?"

    Especially since The Bible does not anywhere declare itself 'infallible', 'inerrant' or 'perfect'. Those sort of descriptions in scripture are uniquely reserved for God, I believe. Scripture only says of itself that it is 'inspired'. All other claims are enthusiastically pious notions of reverent men, somewhat akin to Eve's addition to God's warning words, of "Neither shall you touch it", Gen.3:1-3; Gen.2:16-17. God never said that either.

    .
     
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  11. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    This is beautiful...
     
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  12. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    The Bible contains everything necessary for the Salvation and Righteous Instruction of The Human Race. It is 'perfectly', 'infallibly' and 'inerrantly', adequate for whatever purposes God intended. God is infallible, and therefore can successfully employ fallible and even sinful entities, to achieve God's perfect will. Such was the case with Abram, Moses, All the Prophets, and Us.
     
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  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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  14. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    The Inerrancy of Scripture:

    “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

    “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) This proves New Testament Writings were considered Scripture by the apostles in their own times!

    “For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)

    “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. For no prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20-21)

    “Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29)

    “Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.” (Revelation 1:2)

    “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Revelation 1:9)

    “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of JesusChrist.” (Revelation 12:27)

    “This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.” (Revelation 14:12)

    “Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of JeSus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Revelation 19:10)

    “They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.” (Acts 2:42)

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)

    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16)

    “The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.” (Pslam 12:6)

    “The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.” (Pslam 19:7)

    “The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.” (Pslam 19:9)

    “You are near, O LORD, And all Your commandments are truth.” (Pslam 119:151)

    “The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.” (Pslam 119:160)

    “Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.” (Proverbs 30:5-6)

    Testimony of Jesus (Revelation 19:10) is Testament, as in Nes Testament.
     
  15. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It seems to me that the word 'inerrant' is problematic, because it forces every statement or passage into having to be a scientific fact. For example:

    "Let the rivers clap their hands, let the mountains sing together for joy"
    -Psalm 98, verse 8

    Can rivers clap with their hands? No. Are the Scriptures wrong, then? Certainly not.

    So then what categories then do we use?
     
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  16. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    All very interesting and all very 'inspired', but none are an answer to the question in the preceding post. I can't help thinking that someone left their Bible search engine on auto and went to make a cup of coffee while this post got compiled and sent by their unattended computer, while they were still in the kitchen.

    manvspc: :hmm: To be fair though it was not a reply to the previous post anyhow, so I am once again wrong in my assumptions. To err is human and to often err, more human still, (unless you are Jesus of course who was human and never erred).
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  17. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Member Anglican

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    I've avoided using the term inerrancy for the same reason. It can be used in a reasonable fashion - noting inerrancy in morals and theology, and accepting its propositional statements within their proper literary contexts, but then there are also those who use inerrancy essentially to mandate particular interpretations of certain aspects of science and history that aren't necessarily the only interpretation of the text, the manner of creation being a classic example.

    Much simpler and less controversial simply to stick with the language of Article 6, et al.
     
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  18. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    γραφὴ may well be referring to writing. On balance, I think it refers to the writings that they had, which was largely the LXX, and the primary point at this stage was that they were not discounting all that God had done and was recorded the that which they had received in the law and the prophets, which they received as scripture.

    θεόπνευστος which has been rendered here as 'God-breathed', nuances towards a literalist interpretation, however the general approach of scholars in addressing the greek work is more like 'inspired by God'.

    Even if I like the idea, it is an overreach to suggest at the time of the Apostolic Church that was the understanding, though clearly by the Conciliar period there was a mind to codify what had been received.

    I would have seen this as a reference to the LXX, primarily.

    I believe that the writers of the Old and New Testament, were guided and inspired, and they recorded what they new and understood. I don't believe that those who wrote were mere robots, and I think the differences between there various books indicate something of the individuality and personality of those who wrote. The letter to Philemon placed alongside the letter to the Colossians (4) is a very human account where Paul is seeking an outcome for Onesimus.

    Sometimes I ask myself the question: 'Did Paul think he was writing scripture?'. My answer is no, I don't think that was how he thought of it al all. For one thing his literary style would have been a little better, and if he thought that 2000 years later we were going to be hanging on specific tense, and nuances at every turn, I think he would have been a lot more careful.

    The traditional Muslim approach to the Koran is that Allah spoke and the prophet wrote it down word for word, so they are the words of Allah. This means that the words are absolute, and that there is no variation (indeed mostly it is read in Arabic as translations don't count) and there is no room for historical or textual criticism. This is not something that we have embraced in mainstream Christianity, and Biblical criticism is a discipline in its own right. It has added much to our understanding of the text.

    Scripture is of primary importance to us all as believers, and it is in no sense because I don't trust it that I would allow criticism, but rather because I do trust it, and it tells me to trust God. The Holy Scriptures do not need me to defend them, nor to prop them up and make them something that they are not.

    Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation​
     
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  19. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    :signinquisition: :book::hacker:
     
  20. Rexlion

    Rexlion Active Member

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    I note with interest that the quoted material does not say, "The Bible is inerrant" (period). Instead, it qualifies what it means by the word, and spells out conditions. Not arguing; I think that's the right approach.

    I have one little point I'd add to the discussion, which no one else has brought up. When Jesus said His words would never pass away, one could take that as a promise that He would preserve the record of His words for all of the age to come (which we live in). This implies a very high level of accuracy and dependability to our New Testament. God divinely inspired the writers in order to preserve those words. And to maintain the preservation, God certainly was able to divinely inspire translators and copyists. I would include Erasmus in this group of divinely inspired translators. (I contrast that with Hort, a Darwinist who believed in purgatory and doubted the efficacy of Christ's atonement. Hort and Westcott together founded several occultic societies and were involved in at least one seance.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019

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