How do Anglican's approach prayers of intercessions to saints?

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by bwallac2335, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,720
    Likes Received:
    1,233
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    We in the Church of England, do not pray to the saints in heaven. We believe we have direct access to The Father, through Christ. However, when I lead intercessions for the church on a 3rd Sunday in the month, I conclude them with this statement or something similar. "Now with St Andrew, St Mary, (+ whatever is the nearest saints day), and all the saints in heaven and on earth we here ask these things in the name of Jesus Christ Our Saviour, Amen".
    .
     
  2. Thomist Anglican

    Thomist Anglican Member Anglican

    Posts:
    51
    Likes Received:
    41
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Anglo-Catholic
    While I would agree that ones doesn't have to have all knowledge to be saved, I would disagree that one doesn't have to believe in the Triune nature of God and the Deity of Christ.

    First, I would say that saying that Jesus is the Son of God is saying He is Deity. A son inherits that nature of their father, therefore, Jesus as the only Son of God is by nature Divine and God. So, in Peter saying that Jesus is the Son of the living God, he is affirming Jesus deity.

    Second, with Paul, the term Lord in a Jewish context and in the way Kyrios is used of Jesus is a title of deity. When Paul says that one must confess the Lord Jesus, one is confessing that Jesus is Lord, which means that Jesus is Yahweh, who in a Jewish context was called Adonai, Lord. That last part of the verse is "whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" is a quote from the OT, which in its original language translated is: "whoever shall call on the name of Yahweh shall be saved." But Paul is using the quote in reference of our Lord. So, we must view Jesus and call on Him as Lord/Yahweh to be saved.

    I would say that the only way one could be saved and doesn't believe in the Trinity and the Deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit would be out of ignorance, not hearing the gospel or being told the gospel wrong and never having an opportunity to hear or read a correct proclamation.

    Now, on the point of that Jesus didn't have this high bar of belief, I don't think is correct. He states, " if you do not believe that I Am, then you will die in your sins." (John 8:23) So clearly, Jesus taught that we must believe that he is the I Am, the Yahweh of the Old Testament or else we will die in our sins.

    So, I think the ending of the Athanasian Creed is quite fitting for believers who have gospel proclaimed correctly and are not ignorant. They must believe in the Triune God as He has revealed and must believe in the Deity of Christ to be saved.

    God bless
     
    Stalwart, Rexlion and Tiffy like this.
  3. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    3,494
    Likes Received:
    1,791
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    What of the thief on the cross alongside Jesus? Do you suppose he believed in the Triune God?

    What of a new convert in, say, China? If he has heard only the barest of information about Jesus the Redeemer and has believed on Him, but if he knows nothing of theological matters such as the deity of Christ or the Trinity before he meets his death, is he not saved?
     
    Thomist Anglican likes this.
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,720
    Likes Received:
    1,233
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    I think Thomist Anglican covered that here:
    I understood this to mean that one does not have to have trinitarian understanding to be saved, one just has to have accepted Christ as innocent of all crime or never have accused him, and not rejected trinitarian understanding once it has been revealed to oneself.
    .
     
    Thomist Anglican likes this.
  5. Thomist Anglican

    Thomist Anglican Member Anglican

    Posts:
    51
    Likes Received:
    41
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Anglo-Catholic
    There are always special means of God saving people when they don't know enough. I would call it a salvation out of desire to know God truly. But Christ did say: "This means eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." So the normal means of salvation is for one to know who God is. Now, in special cases, such as the thief on the cross or the man in China who never got to know about the true nature of God but would've accepted the truths of revealed Scripture about the Triune nature of God, I'm sure God would have mercy on them. But it is not the normal means.
    For instance, one of Jehovah's Witnesses most likely wouldn't be saved if died as a faithful Witness, denying the truths of the Gospel for their false gospel and false god.
    But Scripture is very clear that we must confess Christ as Lord/Yahweh to be saved as the normal means. And if someone is proclaiming the gospel and teaching new believers but leaving out the Lordship of Christ and the Trinity, I would say that they maybe aren't proclaiming and teaching properly.

    Yes I would agree with this...partially. I think one must believe that Christ is Lord and Savior to be save and have faith in them, but that means that must accept Christ as divine. Now, if they never got a chance to learn the Triune nature of God and never had the Church proclaim it to them, then I would say it's up to God to determine their heart and if they would've accepted the truths of revealed Scripture if they were revealed to them.
     
  6. Thomist Anglican

    Thomist Anglican Member Anglican

    Posts:
    51
    Likes Received:
    41
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Anglo-Catholic
    Here is two great quotes that I wholeheartedly agree with from the great E.L. Mascall: "Logically and essentially, the doctrine of God is the fundamental doctrine of the Christian Religion, for, according to its teaching, everything other than God depends upon him and exists for his glory."
    "since . . . the doctrine of God is the basis upon which all other Christian doctrine rests, any error that has been allowed to creep into a man’s belief about God will distort his understanding of every other Christian truth. If his idea of God is wrong, his idea of Christ will be wrong, since Christ is God incarnate . . . "
     
  7. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    3,494
    Likes Received:
    1,791
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    This is interesting to me. I've heard and read that Kurios is used in two main but different senses in the N.T., the first being a 'customary and general' usage (applicable to anyone with power or authority), and the second being the the meaning you mention, a title of deity. But what I never thought about before is your point that, apparently, Paul uses Kurios in the latter sense every single time he uses the word. And that seems significant! Even when Paul uses the word in relation to idols in 1 Cor. 8:5, it was because idols were (falsely) regarded as deities.
     
    Thomist Anglican likes this.