How can anyone consider Roman Catholicism, post-Vatican II?

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by Spherelink, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    Pius the 9th not wanting to call another council wrote the syllabus of errors. In it he listed all the things that are an error in the eyes of the catholic church BASED off of two thousand years of history. So here is a chunk of it.

    III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM

    15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

    16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.

    17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

    18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.

    Those four points alone can be found to be true in the current teachings of the catholic church. Read the council of Trent documents, read the baltimore catechism. I mean READ the history.

    Angry ex catholic who feels like someone is trying to mislead people.
     
  2. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    Really? When did the Catholic Church say this? I remember a supposed news article of Pope Francis saying something like this, but I was easily proven to be a hoax. There is a difference between saying all religions contain some elements of truth (something I personally believe), and saying a religions are completely true.

    I find it interesting that if one listens to the posters here and on Orthodox forums they would believe that all Catholics are extremely liberal who just love their clown masses, while if one listens to the posters on Catholic Answers Forums they would think all Catholics are hardcore conservatives who's services are are always quiet, reverent, and have plenty of Latin. My personal experience is somewhere in the middle. But what do I know. I'm from a family of liberal Anabaptist heretics.:rolleyes:
     
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  3. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    The Vatican Theological Commission has just released a brand new document, Sensus Fidei: In the Life of the Church.

    That document contains a passage on usury:


    This eminently complements the Catholic catechism's definition of usury as receiving interest, together with our argument, that Rome has changed doctrine. I'm fascinated how Matthew can twist through contortions to argue that no change in Romanist views has occurred.
     
  4. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    EDIT:

    That same document ("Sensus Fidei") from the Vatican, lists several other matters in which Rome has changed doctrine:


     
  5. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    If you follow things from the traditional catholic front online (I was a traditional catholic) or have fun on youtube you will find countless examples. Of the modern Catholic church.
    As far as catholic answer forums I was proudly kicked off for questioning pope francis washing a muslims girls feet.
    Here is a link that lays out the major issues and warning they tend to be sensational.
    http://www.novusordowatch.org/index.htm
     
  6. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    Any specific examples? Is there a specific Vatican document stating all religions are true? I have yet to see one. All the Catholics I know are instant they part of the one true church Jesus founded. I can't say I am particularly surprised one would be banned from a Catholic forum if he or she goes around insisting that all the Popes says the Second Vatican Council were/are heretics. I doubt I would last very long here if I start insisting all the Archbishops of Canterbury since Henry the Eighth were heretics.
     
  7. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    Go over to a forum like fisheaters, you will find plenty of people kicked off of the catholic.com forum for much less than questioning the actions of the pope. You can get kicked off by asking about modernism for example.
    Read the works and actions of JP2 oh wait the new saint JP2 even thou no saint can be a known heretic( praying at assisi in the interfaith dialogue, kissing a Koran, these two actions alone make him a heretic). Read his letters where he mentions all men souls are united to Christ forever. The list is almost endless. Pope Francis himself has uttered amazing heretical things in his short time in office.
    The catholic church has been removed from v2 now by a couple generations. People raised in the new church do not blink twice about these things. The wording of the new mass which changes so much theology is not even questioned. They where raised, taught this is how the church always was.
    So I do not know what to tell you. Listen to the catholics who think all is right or listen to the catholics that here the fiddles playing in rome.
    Also i honestly do not know much about the actions of the Archbishops of Canterbury. That being said has any of them said Athiests can go to heaven, kissed a Koran, Decimated the liturgy, embraced false religions or any other such act.
     
  8. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    I think we should ask ourselves if the See of Canterbury is infallible, or just has a primacy of honor. Notably I see many conservative Anglicans distance themselves from both Canterbury and the Episcopal church, which fits perfectly well within Anglican ecclesiology. I do not see how the same is possible within Rome.
     
  9. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    Before I make any other replies I want to be sure I make sure it's known that my defense of Catholicism here is not a personal endorsement of Catholicism. I am at a bit of a complicated place in my spiritual journey, and I have spent a long time now trying to figure out what direction I need to go. My personal beliefs are somewhere between Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism with some Anabaptist views thrown in. I am not trying to offend anybody or pick a fight. I just want to make sure all different point of views are treated fairly. I simply don't see the Catholic Church as jumping as far off the rails as many seem to say it has.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
  10. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    I would agree that the two things you mentioned John Paul II doing are questionable, but am going to reserve
    judgment until I know the full story of what happened. Regardless, who am I to say that someone can't be in heaven? Pope Francis has a very different style of leadership than the past few popes, is the first pope to be part of a religious order in centuries, and is the very first Jesuit pope. It is to be expected he will do things differently than those who've gone before. When you add in that the media often does not understand how the church works, it is to be expected that the way things are reported in the media might be inaccurate. I have not yet heard the pope say anything that I think is heretical, granted Catholic theology is not exactly my forte and I tend to try interpret things in the best possible light before ring alarm bells. I can't say I know much about the differences between the ordinary and extraordinary forms of the mass as any sort of liturgy seems incredibly high church to me as I grew up in a low church environment.
     
  11. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    I didn't mean to say it was. I simply trying to make a point that insulting the leaders of another church, particularly a form run by that denomination, is probably not going to go over very well.
     
  12. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    @BrethrenBoy where is this insult you're referring to, in Francis's washing of moslem women's feet? I remember a bunch of both liberal and conservative blogs raise up a cloud over It last year, and neither side thought of the mere discussion of it, to be an insult?
     
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  13. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    As an Anabaptist and maybe more liberal than me I can understand why what he says does not sound heretical. I mean from a Catholic view Baptism is the ordinary means of salvation. Baptism of infants are life or death issues. Also obedience to the see of rome. That faith with out works is useless. The real presence of the lord in the Eucharist and that is just the start. You even said you do not understand catholic liturgy. Liturgy is a good one and a why the church changed. At the council of Trent the liturgy of pius v became the standard. It restored and codified the liturgy or all times, it was never supposed to leave that form.
    The current liturgy is different. It was written with the help of protestants. It is written removing core catholic beliefs that a protestant might find offensive. Not only the liturgy but the sacraments. I am unclear how to explain the importance of sacraments to a Anabaptist. There the means of grace, draws us to God. There also ancient in form. So to take away for exemple the exorcism out of baptism is crazy. The changing of the wording of confirmation so it does not say we are soliders of Christ. So much was changed to fit into a modern world.
    So hey you do not see it. I spent my life tell recently trying to handle these changes on top of me questioning doctrine. I gave up and said i want the historical western church. That was Anglican. I go to an amazing parish where i celebrate the Catholic religion handed done to us by the saints. I am at peace with my faith.
    I am human still so I got a lot of old pain for the Catholic church.
     
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  14. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    We should question are authority. Jesus warned us of false teachers and prophets.
    I have evangelical family and i question there churches a lot on matters of orthodoxy. No apostolic succession. No real presence in the Eucharist. My nieces are almost teenagers and never been baptized. No confession. The list goes on. So i do think it healthy to question leadership, the pope is the vicar of christ as one of his titles proclaim.
     
  15. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    I was referring specifically to the claim that all the Popes sends the Second Vatican counsel have been heretics. I don't see that going over very well on a Catholic forum.
     
  16. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    Hey, give me a little credit! I've been studying the teachings of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism for a while now trying to decide which I should join. I personally can't quite justify becoming Anglican myself as of now, but we'll see what happens. I don't quite agree with some of your claims about the modern Catholic Church, but I'm see where you're coming from and I don't think further argument is going to get very far on either side. I hope we can both continue to grow in faith through interactions on this forum.
     
  17. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    Has anyone said this? :hmm:
     
  18. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    what's been said was that Rome showed errors and flaws in her teaching and leadership, which there is nothing wrong in showing if one is honest.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  19. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    Paul vi changing the liturgy, embracing modernism, documents of v2
    John paul died right away
    John paul 2 Assisi, kissing the koran, interfaith work
    Benidict the 16th books where banned for a while, wrote a lot of the new theology, never ordained as a bishop by the traditional rite
    Francis washing the feet of a muslim girl, asking about homosexuality saying who am i judge causing scandle, telling an athiest they can go to heaven, interfaith worship, granting saint hood to heritic and another who never had miracles verified
    So i do call them heretics. So do I serve rome and ignore the popes or walk away. I walked away. The hard choice but the honest one.
    Also i will pray to for you, and i hope you pray for me.
     
  20. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It is a commonplace amongst the more conservative Romans, can't remember particular instances. However, at one stage there were four popes on the books as well as some three different sects, including the Bishop of Rome, another Archbishop of the Old Roman Catholic Church and the Lefebre Crowd All were out of Communion and their supporters didn't hesitate to label the others. We become Catholics however, by baptism and this is supported by our beliefs , 'Christ's Revelation'. The which shouldn't be added to, neither should the faith be added to, i.e, papal additions.
     
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