Head coverings for women

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by anglican74, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. Ide

    Ide Active Member

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    This is getting off-topic.

    I wrote:
    That because of someone 's sex they can't have an opinion on a topic (because they may "offend" someone) is the height of liberal hypocrisy .

    So clearly it applies to both men and women.
     
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  2. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I really feel that what someone wears to Church, on their head, or other parts of their body, for the most part is their own concern.

    If what they wear is a matter of distraction to others then perhaps it is problematic.
    • On one occasion I recall a person wearing blow up penguin shoes to the Eucharist, which was clearly silly and distracting for others, and he was asked to wear more usual footwear.
    • There was another person who devised a battery power hat that flashed in purple LED lights, 'REPENT' which was worn to an Ash Wednesday service and they were asked to turn the battery off.
    I have always understood that to understand the 1 Corinthians admonition for women to cover their heads, needs to be understood in the cultural context of the 1st Century Corinthian society, where temple prostitution was a significant feature in the busy port town.

    The prime issue of our attendance at public worship is to draw attention to Jesus Christ, and not to ourselves. We do not help ourselves or others if our attendance is more about look at me, than it is about look at God.
     
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  3. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    Well I agree with that statement of course. It would be illogical for me to disagree, since being also a man, I too hold opinions on the matter, which might offend some Bible historical analytical interpretational literalists. My opinion is that it is not for men to dictate what women should wear on their heads, even if they claim that God supports their case, by quoting some of the words they selectively find in Holy Scripture, as if that finally settles the matter in favor of their own prejudices.

    Back on topic, try researching this:
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    For those who found the transfer errors in the research article irritating, here is a cleaned up copy of it. I have replaced the word 'Godde', with God, simply to avoid confusion. The author's intention in using that term is understandably, simply to avoid the common presupposition that there is no female component in the Godhead, Whereas both male and female human beings are made in God's image and likeness, not just men.
     
  5. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    What??
    :confused:

    That’s heresy, and you have just denied the Creeds
     
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  6. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    How is that different from today’s society, where every girl you know of is hooking up? If anything those days of “temple prostitution” were more chaste than ours where prostitution exists in practically every house

    your opinion is false, gender does not matter to truth

    A woman can and should tell me what I should wear

    I can and should tell a woman what she should wear
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
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  7. Ide

    Ide Active Member

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    I agree. I think that the head covering passage is contextual, but still has resonance with our own lives today. Isn't that the case with most of scripture? That it is from a certain time and place, but holds wisdom and guidance for us today. I think we do a disservice to the Bible when on may cast off a passage because the context doesn't match our own today.

    For women's head coverings, if there is a church which embraces and supports their wearing combined with modest clothing then that is a good for the community to encourage and support women participate. I personally found that the practice is not embraced by Anglican churches, so it became more of a distraction than an aid in my prayer while in church. I didn't want people coming up to me and asking why I was wearing the mantilla so I didn't continue.

    There are other options for women which may not look like the mantilla, but still keep to the spirit of modesty in church. Here is one example

    [​IMG]

    Our culture has really devalued traditional feminine behavior and imagery. Women are encouraged more and more to behave like men in public life- to be "fierce" "strong" and competitive and forgo emotional bonds and ties by embracing "hookup" culture. Anything that is traditionally of the feminine realm is seen as a shackle for women to cast off. I suspect this has more to do with the drive to redefine masculine and feminine identities in secular society than for any concern for the emotional or spiritual effects on women.
     
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  8. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    What??
    :confused:

    Are you seriously trying to suggest that the creeds imply that women are not made in the image and likeness of God?
     
  9. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    That there is a feminine element in the Trinity, when we know the Creeds say:
    -Father
    -Son
    -Lord and Giver of Life
     
  10. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sorry old chap. As I’ve already shown you in our previous conversation, male and female are distinct, non-interchangeable, with different natures and requirements for both. We are taught that God made man in the image of God, and woman in the image of man:

    1 Corinthians 11:7-9 (ESV)
    “A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.”
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2018
  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    That deserves an 'F' in both support of male supremacy and theological insight. :laugh: Women were not made in God's image because the creeds say so? :wallbash: :clap:
    Both Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. In God's image created he them, both male and female. And then gave them both dominion.

    I suppose you are unaware that if the Holy Spirit can be considered to have gender, then the Hebrew scriptures seem to indicate The Spirit is referred to in feminine language, and God 'himself' metaphorically refers to himself in feminine terminology at times in the scriptures. Perhaps you didn't realize that. Matt.23:7, Lk.13:34. Isa.49:15, Isa.66:9. And on top of all that God is Spirit, spirit does not have gender and angels do not marry. Matt.22:30.
    .
     
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  12. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    Ever the literalist eh! Just read it then believe it, no understanding required. :news: :laugh:

    You may have convinced yourself, but others are a different matter.

    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. KJV.

    I don't see there being any mention of woman being created in the image of man in the above text. No doubt it is wishful thinking on your part. :pray2: Have another good look at it and really take it in. :book:

    I think the article I gave the link to has a much better explanation of the Greek terms used and the context they were used in, than the 'Historical Analytical' clap trap that comes from pedantic literalists, who just take the English words for granted, out of context and with scant theological insight.
     
  13. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Everyone please keep cool and remember not to focus on personalities. I’ve has to edit a couple of your posts. Please stick to the matter at hand.
     
  14. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    It is nothing like that where I live. Is it really like that where you live, or are you exaggerating? Have you any idea what life was actually like in 1st Century Corinth? Have you actually any idea of what goes on 'in practically every house', in practically every town, even in just the USA, let alone the entire world of God's creation, where Christ's Church is. :confused::no: The way you describe it, it must be pretty grim where you have to live. Perhaps making your women wear hats in church will improve things a bit for you, but I wouldn't bank on it. It sounds to me like you are going to need more than that to restore normality.

    Back on the subject though, a good test of whether we want female head coverings because God insists that they have 'something' on their heads in church, when 'prophesying', or just because we have some sort of male prejudice against women generally, would be, to consider what 'kind of' head covering we might think 'appropriate' for women, and which not 'appropriate'.

    Something 'feminine' obviously. But who decides what is actually 'feminine'? Fashions change, what was 'in vogue' for ladies in 1600 Geneva or Madrid is not necessarily OK for 21st century Baltimore or New York. Something acceptable to the whole congregation, yes, but how will that be decided, and on what criteria?

    If the general principle of the necessity of head coverings is accepted, will there be the option for women to object if they consider the headgear 'demeaning', 'unflattering', 'unfashionable' or 'ugly'. Will the men have the final say on whether women can opt to cover their heads with a homberg, stetson, fez, boater, trilby, Mexican 10 gallon hat, mink fur Russian style hat, turban or fedora. On what grounds would objections to all or any of these be raised?

    Can anyone see the confusion the church is liable to experience if hat wearing for women becomes a theological 'requirement' as some men and women imagine the scriptures to stipulate is necessary.

    Isn't there enough theological confusion in the church without adding to it unnecessarily trivial questions of dress and headgear? Surely anything or nothing is OK so long as it is neither offensive, obtrusive, distracting or obscene.

    If this 'rule' is to be generally accepted as essential in any and every 'Legitimate Christian Assembly', do we need to find out exactly what 'style' and 'type' of head covering was actually being referred to in 1 Cor.11:3-16, or can anything which covers the head of our lady folk do OK? If it has to be 'Corinthian' then why? What did they wear in Pergamos, Sardis, Philadelphia, (either the one in Asia or the one in the USA) or Ephesus. Do we even know if all the women in those churches wore headdress when prophesying? And even if we suspect they did, what exactly was that headdress like? Can we know? Do we need to Know? Does God really care, as long as all is conducted in good order, without offense?
     
  15. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    A naughty thought has just occurred to me. :wicked: 1 Cor.11:7. Would this mean that bald men would have to take off their topees when entering church, for the same reason we remove our hats? :tiphat::buba: :policeus: :policeuk:

    And there are exceptions to hat removal for men also. Standard bearers on duty do not remove their headdress in church when bearing their company colours. (It would be extremely impracticable, their hands being already fully deployed. They only remove them once they have deposited the colours in the sanctuary and have returned to their seats. So there are exceptions to 'rules', and most 'rules' of this kind are merely conventions, the ignoring of convention is not sin, just ignorance and bad manners.
     
  16. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't know what else you're talking about, but creedal orthodoxy is crucial, wouldn't you agree
    Do you accept the Creeds, as they are written?
     
  17. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    The creeds were written only to refute heresy and state a unified doctrinal framework. They do not establish that The Godhead is 'male', that was not their author's intent, only that the Godhead is 'One God in three persons', + other key doctrinal statements refuting error.

    Whosoever will be saved : Etc. You will find no statement specifically attributing 'masculinity, gender or sex' to the entire Godhead, Three in One and One in Three.

    The Godhead is Spirit. Jn.4:24

    God is Holy, Unique, Unsurpassed, Unequaled in all respects. Though mankind is made in the image and likeness of God, God is not the image and likeness of a man. We cannot be like unto The Glorious Trinity. It is only promised that we shall be like unto The Son. Rom.6:5, Phil.3:21, 1 Jn.3:2.

    Men, women, children, babies, human beings, ALL of mankind, (in Christ), like the Son. Not just men.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  18. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Nothing you've said is basically relevan to my question,..
    Do you accept that God is Father, not Mother?
    Do you accept that God is Son, not Daughter?
    Do you accept that God is Lord, not Lady?


    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made;

    who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

    he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;

    from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

    I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. I believe in the holy catholic and apostolic Church; acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
     
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  19. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    Do you accept that God is Spirit, not man or woman?
     
  20. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    He may not be man or woman, but he may be male or female, and in this case male, as the Scriptures and the Creeds to testify
     
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