Gordon H. Clark (Presbyterian), interesting views on mysticism and reason

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Old Christendom, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I have used the Luke 10 defense many times as a papist, defending mysticism & monasticism. It's a familiar argument. :) The Lord, however, is not physically present as He was back then, and we cannot exactly sit at His feet. His Holy Spirit comes forth into our hearts to enlighten our minds, and there is nowhere to sit.

    At any rate, what exactly was Mary doing? She was hearing His word - but what was His word? Bind up the wounded, heal the sick, feed the hungry, care for the dying, visit the imprisoned, and rejoice the lonely - in a word, Love. Our Love is not endless meditation or quietude, but a strong "muscular Christianity", if that phrase doesn't excite too many groans. :p
     
  2. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I would say she was existing in the peace Jesus promised to all his followers, the peace that world cannot give. Jesus gives to all who believe the rest from their burdens and labors and in fact tells us not to concern ourselves with the worries of this world (let the dead bury their dead).
     
  3. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Active Member

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    How do you know? How can you possibly claim to know what God wills regarding liturgies and meditation? And "sitting around being mystical" is a satanic distraction? Are you serious?
     
  4. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    "I" can't know what God wills regarding liturgies and meditation - except that the Lord Jesus told us what His will is. How often does He instruct us on how to offer proper worship, how to pray in private (just once), or how to meditate or contemplate? All the sayings attributed to the Lord in those categories are in the gnostic apocrypha, one will notice. All His teachings in the revealed, divine Scripture are about morality, rationality, thoughts, the heart, and active life in the world. That's why I can claim to speak rightly - I'm just copying the Lord?
     
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  5. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    ...But I've pointed out that your are deviating from the words of Jesus in marked ways.
     
  6. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    ... And I answered in a way that I thought was clear enough. :) The Lord's words are not enough to indicate mystical non-rationalism.
     
  7. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    Some would argue Calvin had a mystical side for example in his view on the Lord's supper:
     
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  8. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    Yes, personal union with Christ was in fact the main force behind all of Calvin's theology, something most people overlook.

    Be it as it may, it's not the same thing as contemplative mysticism and other similar traditions.
     
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  9. Incense

    Incense Active Member

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    One we put Christ in the centre of everything and one we put our thoughts in the centre...
     
  10. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    Should I be proud or ashamed that I instantly knew that was a quote from "Magnum Force"? :D

    Jeff
     
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  11. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    My Russian Orthodox Priest friend commented that during a liturgy, "Heaven bows down to Earth and the Church is lifted up".

    Jeff
     
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  12. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    As to the Calvin vs Mystics comments, several years ago I was being accosted verbally by a fundamental Baptist minister for my defense of Christ's real presence in the Eucharist, and I asked him why he always prayed for Christ's presence in the power of his preaching, for wisdom in church board meetings, and for safety of all missionaries worldwide, but not for something Jesus himself instituted. A deer in the headlight facial expression was followed by silence.:think:

    Jeff
     
  13. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Oh dear... this is a great example of the rational vs. mystical controversy in our thread.

    There is a difference between the presence of Christ in the Person of His Holy Spirit moving the minds, hearts, and tongues of the faithful - versus the presence of the Person of the Son in the holy Eucharist. One is the Second, the other is the Third; both are God Almighty, but one is not the Word. ;) See? Mystical ecstasies and fantasies averted by application of simple logic! :p
     
  14. Simon Magus

    Simon Magus Member

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    Sounds about right to me.
     
  15. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    O wise Consular what exactly do you base your false accusations on? I was under the impression that Anglicans accepted the fathers from the first 5 centuries. But here you are rejecting their theology (especially the Cappodocian Fathers). Also, have you ever experienced hesychasm? How familiar are you with Eastern Spirituality? Hesychasm is nothing more than an attempt to follow the Apostolic Instruction to pray unceasingly. I would suggest that you not be so quick to attack and besmirch the Christian East without which there would be no Christian West.