Good News from Wales

Discussion in 'Anglican and Christian News' started by seagull, Sep 12, 2013.

  1. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    You know that mere nominal membership isn't enough Seagull. You have to be orthodox above all else. Adhere to the one truth delivered once for all time to the saints. A person can be a cheery pleasant person, an Anglican, and go to Hell.
     
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  2. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Member

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    Well, of course! Church membership does not earn you a "Get Out of Hell Free" card. Nonetheless, I get a little bit nervous when folks start to talk about the "truth" as if it is an absolute and easily understood fact. Everybody thinks they have the truth and the other fellow doesn't -- that their beliefs are right and the other fellow's aren't. I think we are all going to be amused on judgment day. I continue to think every single one of us -- even the most righteous -- are going to hear this said about something they knew as true: "You know what <insert name>, that is not exactly what I meant. You misunderstood that part." I suspect some near-misses will be overlooked or forgiven while some missed-it-by-a-mile beliefs place one in peril. In any case, I believe the self-righteous will be humbled.

    I know the whole and complete "truth"...and I fully suspect I am wrong about something I think I know. The rest of you, too.
     
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  3. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I think that seeking.IAM has answered this in his usual thoughtful and erudite way. But your dogmatic stance begs various questions. I hope that you are not implying that I am a "mere nominal member" of the CofE. As for "have to be orthodox above all else", that seems to speak of Ratzinger's Rome rather than Canterbury. Remember that the Church of England at any rate is a tolerant Church. It is mature enough to recognise doubt.
     
  4. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    Since my post "Good News from Ireland" has been closed and the word "good" removed, should this not apply in this thread? Or is what is good for the Welsh not good for the Irish?
     
  5. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    So we celebrate heretics now?

    To call this travesty "good news" is an insult to the Gospel of Christ.
     
  6. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    To whom are you applying the derogatory label "heretic"?

    I was in Ireland last weekend and visited Waterford Church of Ireland Cathedral. I chatted to a parishioner who said how pleased they were to have a female Dean. Does this make her a "heretic"?
     
  7. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    Those who knowlingly preach a gospel that is alien to the gospel preached by the Apostles. Those who knowingly deviate from apostolic ordinations for church order and discipline, such as male presbyters and bishops.

    Only God knows her culpability. I'm not her judge, He is. But objectively those who tamper with the word of God, are accursed.
     
  8. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    OK, let's quit the ducking and weaving. I am a supporter of women priests and bishops. So am I a heretic?
     
  9. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    To knowingly support women clergy is to go against a clear apostolic ordinance. It is heresy.

    But I am not your judge, God is. Fortunately, you can repent of it.
     
  10. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    So that means that not only am I a "heretic", so are the entire congregation of my church, my vicar and curate (both women) and the Archbishops of Canterbury, Armagh and Wales (plus many others). Fortunately I imagine it's extremely unlikely that they'll be repenting of it. Certainly I won't be.
     
  11. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    Truth is not a matter of numbers but of faithfulness to God's word.

    "Right is right even if no-one is doing it. Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it." - Augustine.
     
  12. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    As to the clear apostolic ordinance, you will of course know that many theologians and biblical scholars agree with you and many disagree. In those circumstances wouldn't it be more charitable, indeed perhaps more honest, to call those you disagree with "mistaken", or even "wrong", rather than "heretical"?
     
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  13. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    "Many" theologians and biblical scholars do disagree with an all-male clergy for the last few decades, under the rising influence of feminism in Western society. In fact, we have no shortage of theologians and biblical scholars today wreaking havoc in the Church in all sorts of matters.

    In any case, as I said before, scriptural truth is not a matter of numbers. The majority of Jewish scholars and religious leaders in Christ's day got it wrong.
     
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  14. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    Yes, I'm not saying it is a question of numbers, and of course I would not be so impertinent as to suggest that you should yield your opinion. In any case, as you will know, the Church of England accepts that those who oppose the ordination of women are expressing a legitimate and historically dominant strand of Anglican thought: that is why it makes such efforts to preserve space for those of your view. In other words it accepts that some of its members will view others of its members as mistaken and holding incorrect opinions on this matter. It attempts to hold the Christian community together. My point is simply about the language you use. Saying that the likes of Tom Wright and Rowan Williams – and Justin Welby – are wrong is fine. Is it necessary to call them heretics?
     
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  15. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Great question Onlooker. I don't think it is necessary. Heresy, so I am told, involves willfully and stubbornly holding views contrary to the doctrines of the faith. It seems to me that the appropriateness of women clergy is an issue of church order rather than faith. While it is certainly true that an all-male clergy system is exemplary of the historic order of the christian church, and while it is certainly within bounds to criticize bishops, who are charged with protecting and defending both the historic faith and order of the church, for abandoning such an ancient practice without the consensus of the larger Anglican community, I don't believe the term "heretic" applies in this case. Although, I guess that experientially, it seems that the general rule is when one departs from the historic order of the church, it coincides with a departure from the historic faith.
     
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  16. Alcibiades

    Alcibiades Member

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    You know, maybe it's just my ears but that sounded pretty damned sensible to me.
    Though on your last sentence, if the two were correlated at all times, doesn't that raise some sticky questions for the Reformation? Perhaps a departure from the order can also sometimes be an exercise in rediscovery of true priorities?
     
  17. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    It sounded sensible to me, too, and, as you say, it's interesting, too. But of course it slips past the question I was asking, which was not about the technical meaning of heresy, but about whether it was "necessary" to use it as a condemnatory expression in conversation with a fellow Christian. I had an argument with a man a couple of days ago. My view was that what he was saying was pompous nonsense. In fact it *was* pompous nonsense, and I would have been perfectly correct semantically to tell him so. I didn't, however. It was not necessary. I managed to express my argument satisfactorily nonetheless.
     
  18. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    Unfortunate news. Devastating really. I didn't know Wales got the rights to have a church of its own in the first place?
     
  19. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    The Church of England used to include Wales (although Welsh was, and still is, used in many church services). But the majority of Welsh people were "nonconformist" (Baptist, Methodist, etc.). When David Lloyd George, himself a Welsh-speaking nonconformist, was Prime Minister, he successfully enacted legislation to disestablish the Church in Wales. Since then the Church in Wales has had its own Archbishop and has done quite well, attracting many from other Christian faiths. Rowan Williams, another Welsh-speaker, was formerly Abp of Wales.
     
  20. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    Another interesting point here is that — and here I'm following my fallible memory; forgive me if I'm wrong — while priests from other provinces of the Anglican Communion need the archbishop's permission to minister in England, an exception to this rule is priests from the Church in Wales or the Scottish Episcopal Church (both of which have greenlighted women bishops) and priests from the Church of Ireland, who have just elected a woman bishop. There could be teardrops to shed.