GAFCON

Discussion in 'Questions?' started by Jeffg, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Rexlion

    Rexlion Active Member

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    Liturgyworks, Joel Osteen is totally off the reservation. He is not a good representative sample of the Word of Faith group; he has departed from orthodoxy. If that is who you're looking at, I can fully understand how you arrived at your assessment. But as one who has attended not just a church but a WoF Bible college, I can assure you that Joel is an outlier.

    Jesus' statement that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against" His church is not at all indicate a guarantee of that church's perfection. We all have reasons to think our personal choice of denomination is the best, but claiming perfection for any of them is, shall we say, a bit 'over the top.' One might ask which Orthodox Church is perfect, as there are several.

    If "having perfect theology" were a strict requirement for entry into heaven, not one single person would make the cut. Think about it.
     
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  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Active Member

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    BTW, I never suggested unity, but I did say that dialogue would be healthy. If one's standard is set so high in the "truth has no fellowship with falsehood" dogmatism, then any group with any falsehood in any of their teachings becomes "false". Thus the members of the "doctrinally perfect" Orthodox must shun the Baptists, the Anglicans, the Romans, the Methodists, and on and on, because only the Orthodox Church is "perfect." But in fact, very many denominations are doctrinally in fine shape or even perfect.

    It also seems slightly flawed to distinguish between doctrine and teachings in the Orthodox world (so as to minimize the "theological gaffes" of some outlier Metropolitans), but to not be willing to make the same distinction in WoF. I myself laid out errors in the teachings of WoF before I ever said anything good about them, but I will reiterate that their primary doctrine is pure although some of their teachings are objectionable. (Osteen is an exception because he does not preach Biblical morality or the need to accept and follow Christ. He allows that even atheists might be accepted into heaven.)

    When various denominations all adhere to the necessary basics of the faith, as found in the Nicene Creed, that should count for something. All other differences can potentially be discussed in an amicable fashion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  3. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Active Member

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    I disagree on both of these points.

    The core doctrines of the Word of Faith movement, and most importantly their worship, are corrupt, greatly so. The fact that unity between Word of Faith churches would not be defined in the form of Eucharistic communion around a bishop in apostolic succession is by itself a huge problem, but taken as a whole, I believe it is fair to say every Word of Faith doctrine aside from their acceptance of the Niceno-Chalcedonian Creed of 381 is at best, questionable.

    Also, I am of the opinion that churches which do not recite the Nicene Creed in worship aren’t properly Nicene; in my youth my Christology was confused because the UMC and other Protestant churches almost always use the Apostle’s Creed, which I think ought to be limited to its original function, a component of the baptismal liturgy. If I had recited the Nicene Creed or the Athanasian Creed and sung a hymn like Ho Monogenes every Sunday, I would have had a much better understanding of Christianity and would be a better person than I am now.

    That said, the Nicene Creed is alas, not a silver bullet against heresy. You can confess it and still believe in Collyridianism, Antidicomarianism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, Monothelitism, Monergism, Universalism, Pelagianism, and Iconoclasm, and these are serious heresies. The first edition of the creed only rules out Arianism, Unitarianism, Gnosticism and Sabellianism; the second edition also excludes semi-Arianism, Chiliasm, Pneumatomacchianism, and Apollinarianism. And this is good and important, but the authors of the creed of 381 could not write the creed to guard against heresies which were not yet in existence.
     
  4. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    This whilst attractive is not wholly kosher. On 587 at the third Synod of Toledo when Recarred abandoned Arianism for Nicene Christianity, it was decided that the Nicene Creed should be sung or said at mass on Sundays and Holy Days. From around 808 the creed was omitted from the liturgy in Rome to avoid arguments about the filioque. It's use was revived in 1014 for the coronation of Henry II as HRE. Whilst the use of the creed is to be commended it does not define a Church as being properly Nicene.
     
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  5. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Active Member

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    I disagree, and would argue you proved my point: the abnormal behavior of the Roman church relates to the Photian Schism and the legitimate concerns of St. Photius over the Frankish imposition of the Mozarabic form of the Creed on the Roman church; these events directly correspond to the Carolignian meddling in Roman ecclesiastical affairs and led to the disaster of the great schism in 1054, as well as the dreadful suppression of the Gallican liturgy, the Fourth Crusade, the corruption of the Roman church in the High Middle Ages and Renaissance era, the 16th century schisms, the rise of various heretical non-conformist sects like the Anabaptists and the Puritans, and the Wars of Religion.

    This is not to say the Roman Church was devoid of grace, or the Methodist church devoid of grace, but rather the failure to use the Nicene Creed in the liturgy is a serious ecclesiastical malfunction; the continued use of the creed is something Anglicans should celebrate as one of the strengths of their church.
     
  6. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    You misread me. The Nicene Creed is the creed of the Mass. That contemporary rcc liturgies provide for the creed of the Apostles is lamentable. My point was more that in the West Toledo was to my knowledge the first time it was mandated for use.
     
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  7. Rexlion

    Rexlion Active Member

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    I respect your viewpoint. However I feel like you and your fellow Orthodox swing a very wide net on doctrine. It makes me wonder whether, in the afterlife, we will see all the Orthodox keeping to themselves in a small, walled enclave in one corner of the Kingdom while the rest of the redeemed 'heretics' roam freely and hobnob amongst one another! (And the Romans will still be sweating in Purgatory.) :D Who knows? (Written tongue in cheek)

    You mentioned in another post your Fast of the Apostles. Do Orthodox folks keep the different fasts as a matter of requirement and obligation (barring special permission), or are they optional and up to the individual's conscience to choose?
     
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  8. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Active Member

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    IIRC its use predated that in the East, but I do recall the creeds were not immediately used in the Church. However, this was evidently unsatisfactory; the early church found it neccessary to compose one, and in due course to add it to the liturgy.
     
  9. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I do know when it began to be used liturgically in the, save that it is ancient. The ancient position was before the anaphora and more likely refered to as the Nicene symbol. It has a very different feel in that position.
     
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  10. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Active Member

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    That’s correct, because the Orthodox church tends to use the apophatic method, also known as the via negativa, to define the boundaries of acceptable belief, and undefined space in the middle is the realm of Theoloumemna, or theological opinions. With which one should be careful; at least one ascetic text linked opinions to the formation of conceit, a dangerous passion.

    I suggest you read The Soul After Death by Fr. Seraphim Rose (memory eternal). Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, from the opposite end of the Orthodox theological spectrum , did a superb lecture which is on youtube, Salvation in Christ.

    You mentioned in another post your Fast of the Apostles. Do Orthodox folks keep the different fasts as a matter of requirement and obligation (barring special permission), or are they optional and up to the individual's conscience to choose?[/QUOTE]

    The simple answer is no. The longer answer to this is complex, and I would rather talk about the Book of Common Prayer and the progress of traditional Anglican movements to reclaim these great cathedrals for Christ, so that the communion between Anglicanism and Orthodoxy that has been contemplated since at least the time of the Scottish Non-Jurors can be implemented in some manner. See The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos. Use caution when seeking answers online or in books published by western academics; The Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity and The Oxford History of Christian Worship feature some stunning errors, and these are extremely well researched, high-end works. And disregard everything you read about the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, because 80% of it is the fruit of misunderstanding, mistranslation, folklore transmitted as fact, Rastafarian disinformation, Derg communist disinformation and confusion between Ethiopian Orthodox and Ethiopian Jewish (Beta Israel) customs. The only thing you need to know about the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is that, during a severe fast, with most of the people undernourished and highly impoverished to begin with, the faithful will stand in church for vigils and the liturgy for twenty hours.
     
  11. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Active Member

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    Indeed, in the our Divine Liturgies the Nicene Creed, and only the Nicene Creed, is recited in its ancient position after the dismissal of the catechumens (and in Lent, during the Presanctified Liturgy, the energumens, those about to be baptized), during the brief part of the Liturgy of the Faithful also including the Cherubic Hymn or Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent (on Holy Saturday), before the anaphora begins with the Kiss of Peace (in some churches) followed by thr Sursum Corda. Well, the Kiss of Peace isn’t per se part of the Anaphora, except in the Syriac Orthodox Church, where the prayer of the Kiss of Peace changes depending on which of the 86 anaphoras is being used (of which 14 are readily available in English translation and around 40 in Latin). It is perhaps for this reason that the multiplicity of Eucharistic Prayers in the 1979 BCP and Common Worship does not bother me (their quality on the other hand...)
     
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  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Active Member

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    The simple answer is no. The longer answer to this is complex, and I would rather talk about the Book of Common Prayer and the progress of traditional Anglican movements to reclaim these great cathedrals for Christ, so that the communion between Anglicanism and Orthodoxy that has been contemplated since at least the time of the Scottish Non-Jurors can be implemented in some manner. See The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos. Use caution when seeking answers online or in books published by western academics; The Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity and The Oxford History of Christian Worship feature some stunning errors, and these are extremely well researched, high-end works. And disregard everything you read about the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, because 80% of it is the fruit of misunderstanding, mistranslation, folklore transmitted as fact, Rastafarian disinformation, Derg communist disinformation and confusion between Ethiopian Orthodox and Ethiopian Jewish (Beta Israel) customs. The only thing you need to know about the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is that, during a severe fast, with most of the people undernourished and highly impoverished to begin with, the faithful will stand in church for vigils and the liturgy for twenty hours.[/QUOTE]
    I asked, is it A or B? And you answered "no". :confused:

    No, the fasting is not optional?
    Or no, the fasting is not required?
     
  13. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Active Member

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    Pretty much. Kinda boggles the mind, don’t it? :tiphat:
     
  14. Dave Kemp

    Dave Kemp Member Anglican

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    The Anglican communion only recognise The Episcopal Church as the Anglican Church in America. I’m in an ACNA church mission in the diocese of Quincy. Most of our small congregation are former TEC and I can vouch for the bad blood as many feel their church was taken from them, I mean the body not the buildings.
     
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