Episcopal church without gay marriage

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by Jellies, Jul 23, 2021.

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  1. Jellies

    Jellies Active Member

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    I’m new to Anglicanism. Is there a “branch” of the episcopal church that isn’t associated with approving gay marriage? Or some sort of way I can know if they don’t approve it? (Are they even allowed to do that? Are they compelled to accept it? I’ve gone on their websites and haven’t found one that says they don’t).
    there’s like 1 Anglican Church near me I think which is why I wanted to try episcopal.
    Also I’m in FL, usa.
     
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  2. Jellies

    Jellies Active Member

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    Also an edit:
    I go in the episcopal church’s websites and in the “what we believe” they never say if they approve gay marriage or not. The only way I can tell in some of them is because they post pictures with rainbow stuff…
    Which is why I’m wondering if all episcopal churches are required to accept this. I really don’t want to have to message them individually and ask it seems like they’ll take it as a rude attack on gay people
     
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  3. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Episcopal Church as a denomination is forfeit on this issue, since they recently rewrote their Prayerbook to remove all references to gender in for example the marriage rite. This was done so that they could officiate gay marriages without a fuss, “by the book” so to speak (literally).

    There are two Anglican movements that are actively at war with the Episcopal Church. One is the Continuing Anglican movement, which broke off in the 70s over women’s ordination. @Shane R is a priest there and may be able to help finding a parish.

    The other is the new Anglican province that I’m a part of, which actually broke off in 2008 over the very issue of gay marriage. They suffered a lot of persecution, people were sued, everything they had was taken (bc. they wouldn’t support gay marriage), lives were destroyed, whole congregations were put out of their church buildings. In one case TEC stripped an entire congregation of their church building, and then turned around and sold the building to Muslims. This is the Anglican Church that I’m a part of. They aim to displace the Episcopal Church and become the new Anglican province over north America, where gay marriage and sodomy are not permitted in our doctrine. https://anglicanchurch.net. They have a handy parish locator. You should have a ton of locations in Florida.
     
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  4. ZachT

    ZachT Active Member

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    Take this with a grain of salt, but that way it works in Australia is that each diocese has the liberty (in theory at least) to bless or refuse to bless gay weddings (at the moment we have two that are doing it/trying to do it. It's all very confusing on if they've actually started). I'd presume The Episcopal Church holds a similar position, which is why it may be challenging to see if a specific church blesses gay weddings. I would suggest contacting your local parish church and asking them directly, they won't take offence even if they're of the progressive sort.

    I'm sure someone on this forum will be very prompt to also suggest an ACNA alternative in Florida.

    My advice has always been to not get too invested in church shopping, your local TEC parish is almost certainly sufficient for salvation in any case, and any disagreements on things like gay blessings is something you can respectfully advocate for and change over time, internally, with great patience, compassion and openness. I quoted a passage of CS Lewis's Screwtape Letters some time ago on this forum. It's about a senior demon who is giving advice to his nephew on how best to mislead and tempt humans. Here is an excerpt:
    "Surely you know that if a man can’t be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the neighbourhood looking for the church that “suits” him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches."​
     
  5. Jellies

    Jellies Active Member

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    Thanks for the advice. I don’t think I am church shopping though, I’ve never been to any of these churches and it’s my first time learning about the episcopal church.
    Respectfully, I disagree. I do not think I could ever be in a church that condones a sin clearly stated in the Bible as one of the worst sins. A church that advocates for sin? That is no church at all, to me. I would honestly rather go to a Roman Catholic Church or an Orthodox Church before I ever go to a church that supports and marriages gays. At least they don’t condone sin.
     
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  6. Jellies

    Jellies Active Member

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    Thank you, that is good to know. I am against gay marriage and ordination of women. Sad to see this has predated the episcopal “church.” No offense to anyone, it’s just I cannot believe a church can condone and bless sin.
    its shocking to be honest, I thought this was only a thing in fringe Protestant groups. I’m a baptist and not even the most mega church type of baptist church will ever bless or condone homosexuality. How can people clearly ignore was is plain in scripture yet call themselves a Christian?
     
  7. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It is everywhere. The Methodists have recently approved it, the Presbyterians approved it a while ago. Pope Francis, most RCCs in the pews, and a US #1-followed priest, approve it. Also some denominations of Eastern Orthodoxy approve of it. This is the mega-heresy of our lifetimes.
     
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  8. Jellies

    Jellies Active Member

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    I can’t believe the Presbyterians too!. What in the world is going on with churches??
    Is this just in America and the UK?
    Also I don’t think Pope Francis supports gay marriage (publicly anyways). I think he supports gay civil union. But then the Vatican did damage control and said that it was all spliced clips or something idk. Can you show me where he says that?
    And tbh I don’t think the RCC will approve gay marriage any time soon, neither will the orthodox. A few heretical priests don’t speak for everyone. They may have wrong doctrines and like 70% of RC approve gay marriage, but the people in charge don’t. And they’re the ones that call the shots.
     
  9. Spiritus

    Spiritus Member

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    I'm not trying to justify the actions of Pope Francis or Fr. James Martin or downplay the very real danger of a slow slide toward heresy but you're statement isn't accurate. Pope Francis did state support for homosexuals' in civil unions to be afforded certain rights within the bounds of civil unions but he has never approved gay "marriage". Neither has Fr. Martin though admittedly he does tend to dance on the line.

    The Methodist voted down gay "marriage" on the large scale but there are certainly some that have and continue to do so anyway.

    A few break away Orthodox Churches have taken steps in that direction but outside of a few individual bishops none have openly approved it.
     
  10. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    As the Forum’s resident Episcopalian, I can tell you this is not accurate. The 1979 Book of Common Prayer has not been revised, and it is looking increasingly unlikely that it will be. There are, however, alternative rites that are approved for use.

    The most that could be said from a fundamentalist standpoint regarding the issues raised here - and I am not endorsing that position here - is that the mainline churches are suffering from a laxity of discipline. The sin of schism is a far weightier matter, however. Even so, if it is strong discipline one seeks, I can’t imagine how Rome could favorably compare to the canonical Anglican jurisdictions, given the present environment. It’s also not at all clear that Rome will be able to avoid the issue forever, and the Orthodox, which face the dilemma, have their own issues on top of that. In short, if it’s sin you’re seeking to avoid, the churches will always be the wrong place to look before the Lord returns. If, however, you want the historic liturgy, a life of daily practice that is both filled with Scripture and echoes the Western tradition of prayer, and the freedom to confront the issues of the day with an open mind and without anyone telling you what you can and can’t think, there’s no better place to be than the Episcopal Church. If you look for heterodoxy in our Prayer Book I can assure you that you won’t find any. That being said, one must always follow one’s conscience, of course.
     
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  11. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    From back in 2018:
    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/201...sex-couples-can-marry-anywhere/6911531598261/

    “July 14 (UPI) -- The Episcopal Church removed restrictions on same-sex marriage, a move that allows all couples to wed where they worship, even if their bishop disapproves.”

    “No one spoke against the resolution during a short debate by the House of Deputies, the news service affiliated with the Episcopal Church said.”


    Similarly from the 2018 General Convention:

    https://wmbriggs.com/post/25132/

    “The Episcopal Church formed a committee Wednesday to “provide a pathway” toward revising the Book of Common Prayer to include gender-neutral language.”

    “Church leaders called for immediate revisions to correct the “overwhelming use of masculine language” throughout the book, arguing that the language is now a hindrance to spiritual inclusion, according to the Episcopal Church website.”

    You may be right that the committee hasn’t finished its work yet. Be it because of Covid and whatnot.
     
  12. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    The 2018 Convention is ancient history at this point. The resolutions you’re referring to regarding revision were ultimately panned, in favor of a different resolution that “memorialized” the 1979 BCP as the de jure standard and allowed for the ongoing creation of and experimentation with alternative rites deemed to be consistent with it. I have not been to any parish which uses any such rites. The 1979 is very deeply ingrained, especially now that most of its most vocal detractors have left. The so-called “liberal” wing has historically been more liturgically conservative than the evangelicals, and now that many of the latter have left, that’s even more the case. Everyone agrees there are certain ways the 1979 could be improved; no one wants to risk ending up with a finished product that winds up being a net loss. So there’s no revision of the 1979 on the horizon at this point. Another big part of the reason why not is that the progressive wing outran itself: the people whom the proposed changes were meant to cater to, in many cases don’t want the changes.
     
  13. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Jellies, welcome. My advice: first thing, pray! Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you. Then attend a candidate church that you hopefully feel led to try, worship with them, listen to the homily for clues about the rector's leanings, and if all seems okay at that point then ask the rector for an appointment to sit down and chat. They will almost certainly be delighted to do so. During that visit you can ask pointed questions and learn where the rector stands. He is the one who will set the tone for the parish.

    If you are satisfied with his answers, great! If not, move on to the next candidate. :thumbsup:
     
  14. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    We shouldn’t purely rely on personal anecdotes to paint a picture. At a nearby TEC parish they held a daily eucharist every day at noon, and they used precisely those new rites. The “star wars” liturgy where you pray about the stars and the moon and the cosmos. I’ve sat in nearly every week, as a matter of curiosity. They went on with exclusively that liturgy for the whole year that I was there, until Covid broke it up.
     
  15. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I couldn’t agree more. The “Star Wars” liturgy you’re referring to isn’t a new rite. It’s Eucharistic Prayer C in the 1979 Prayer Book. That would probably be the first thing to go in a full scale revision.
     
  16. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    The TEC removed Bishop Love from office and he was the last Bishop who would not allow gay marriage. They removed him over that very issue.
     
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  17. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Unfortunately, that is the way the Anglican Church is going, certainly in the West. I know the TEC permits same-sex marriage. I haven't investigated the Anglican Church in Canada but if they have approved it I would not be at all surprised. Here in the UK the Scottish Episcopal Church have approved same-sex marriage. For me it is the final red line. If my church, the Church of England approves it, and I think it is only a matter of time, I will be gone for certain. The ordination of women almost made me leave. We do have some provision here of male bishops and priests not involved in anyway with the ordination of women who make alternative pastoral provision for us.
     
  18. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    If it's any comfort, no Christian church is immune. The United Methodist church is in the process of separation at this very moment. The Presbyterians fractured long ago. (And more fracturing seems to be on the menu.) Same for the Lutherans. The Southern Baptists seem to be dividing over issues of social justice and race rather than homosexual practice, but it's certainly an issue for them as well. Even the Roman Catholics have seen a fissure open up between the Latin-mass "trads" and the liberal (Jesuit) "novus ordos".

    I think American Christians are moving away from denominationalism and into more basic "liberal" vs "orthodox" groupings. The American orthodox will realign with conservative churches in Asia and the Global South; the liberal churches will continue to wither and will probably disappear entirely in a few decades. (For why should one take the weak-tea liberalism on offer from modern churches when you can get it undiluted from the culture itself, and without all that pesky moralizing?)

    The Global West is post-Christian, and has been for a while now. That process is accelerating. The great cathedrals of Europe are basically tourist attractions and museums nowadays. England has far more churches than there are ministers to occupy the pulpits or people to sit in the pews. North America and Eastern Europe, long the two Christian-majority holdout regions for an overwhelmingly secular West, are now succumbing as well. (Well, maybe Poland will remain a Roman Catholic citadel -- they seem to have escaped a lot of the spiritual malaise that has fallen everywhere else in the old Soviet Bloc countries.) The days of the United States being a "Christian nation" are at an end.

    Institutional Christianity is no longer centered in Europe or America; it's in Africa. The rest of the Christian world is now operating in their wake. But this is actually good news for us Anglicans: the lingua franca of Christian Africa is English. As Africa increasingly becomes the center for Christian study and practice, we in North America and England will still be able to partake in their conversations.
     
  19. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    What often gets overlooked is that Christianity wasn’t designed with capitalism in mind. The high level of social and geographic mobility we experience is no more assumed by the Prayer Book tradition than it is by the Rule of St. Benedict. When communities are constantly changing, religious institutions have to pick some other fixed point to anchor their efforts. To frame it as “orthodox” vs. “liberal” is to mistake the symptom for the cause, and is largely missing the point anyway. The militant nationalism and minimalist social policy often advocated by the so-called “orthodox” who often align with the political Right, has arguably caused more societal harm and been more detrimental to the spread of the Gospel than anything the so-called “liberal” churches have done. The unfortunate fact is that all of the churches are shrinking. The idea that Africa is somehow the magic cure for the woes of the West is misguided at best. Just look at South Africa, where Anglicanism is every bit as “liberal” as it is in the northern hemisphere. It is all a matter of socioeconomic development. The same things that have happened here will eventually happen in Africa as well.
     
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  20. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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