Did Jesus have brothers and sisters, or is Mary the Ever-Virgin?

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by Anna Scott, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    I was actually just doing a bit of bedtime research on the subject =D It's great anyone can now read early church writings! I'll post up what I',m able to find
     
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  2. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I'm sorry for the delay in replying to your e-mail, I've been looking for a copy of the Creed, with Notes and written by by Bishop Pearson after the Reformaation and restoration! It used to be a must read for everyone, but then it was frowned upon by our Anglo papist friends.As far as I remember the notes are very good. The edition I have was printed about 100 years ago by a chap called Boehm. (I think.)
    Otherwise as I understand it, early catholics believed without problem and it was in the fourth century that dissenters began to appear and that is why the Councils began to discuss the problems and their statements became important!
     
  3. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    The earliest evidence I can find is the protoevangelium of James written in c140AD. It's interesting that the earliest mention is after Mary,the apostles and the first generation had passed away.

    In the writings of the early church fathers, Origen supports Mary's perpetual virginity:

    Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity
    (Origen, on Matthew 2:17, c248)

    I think it's interesting that Origen appeals not to the apostles, or tradition, but to reason. It's about another 100 years before we start getting a lot of support for Mary's perpetual virginity.

    The evidence seems very shaky to me - it's certainly not enough to convince me of it
     
  4. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    I have no problem believing that Jesus' siblings were the children of Saint Joseph from a previous marriage as it states in the Proto-evangelium of James. However, there are parts of the same book that I have difficulty believing. Again, I have no problem believing in the perpetual virginity of Mary, which I do. I also don't think that there is anything dirty about sex or procreation or that virginity or celibacy is a preferred path to God. Just my 2 cents.
     
  5. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Robert,
    Glad you are adding your "2 cents." There is diversity in Anglican beliefs regarding the perpetual virginity of Mary.

    Personally, I think the long standing Christian Tradition bears witness to Mary as the Ever-Virgin--but some Anglicans would disagree.

    Glad you have joined our discussions.

    Anna
     
  6. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Not to argue or criticise, ˙heaven forbid!' When we are baptised we become Members of Christ and Children of God. As a Child I was taught that meant we became Catholics, i.e. members of His Body! Now what are we members of if we can so simply and surely dismiss the opinions of our fathers! Anglican ones at that? Surely belief, or faith is everything, it is what makes us Christian?
     
  7. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    My niece, who I'm about to send home in the rain, has suggested that I am being rude, in my comment above! ,'Heaven forbid,' it would appear is the offending bit! Please accept my apologies it wasn't meant to be either offensive or even caustic! They are a Baptist family and very P.C. minded! When she was a child I was against allowing her to become one> But my parents were dazzled by her red hair and she was spoilt!
     
  8. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Highchurchman,
    If the worst thing you ever say on this forum is "Not to argue or criticize, heaven forbid!" I'd say you are doing O.K. lol. But---your niece sounds like she has manners, which are lacking in much of today's society. It's O.K. to spoil her a bit.

    As to your point, I agree that we should not abandon the Tradition of our ECF's. That's why I said, "Personally, I think the long standing Christian Tradition bears witness to Mary as the Ever-Virgin--".

    Peace and blessings,
    Anna
     
  9. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Scottish Knight.
    Pearson's, Exposition of the Creed. Bohn's Library, 1894 Ed. Also,Archbishop Haverland has a short monograph on the subject that I got off the internet several years ago! But a perusal of the various Councils mentioned in my earlier post gives clear info on the wider picture!

    I shouldn't imagine there was much doubt before the Reformation, but even at the time many well known Anglicans held to the Doctrine of 'Mary Ever Virgin'! I'E.Cranmer, Hooper, Latimer, John Donne, Bishop Sparrow, Father Herrick, the Carolinian Poet and of course Richard Field the author of,'The Church.' T<he latter is usually referred to as a Calvinist!

    There's a good book,
    which I find interesting,'The Blessed Virgin Mary in three centuries of Anglicanism. J.A.Shuel . A C Convent Society, 289 Spencer St, Ontairio, Canada.K!Y 2R1.

    There was also a very good pamphlet put out by some ACC, people in England or the Diocese of the UK,( Anglicans and The Lady Mary,) only about nine pages long,there was a big demand for it, but who ever was responsible didn't republish which I thought was a pity.
     
  10. Scottish Monk

    Scottish Monk Well-Known Member

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    highchurchman and others...

    I very much want to study the doctrine of Mary both from the traditional Catholic and Anglican points of view.

    *****

    From the traditional Catholic perspective I am considering the following two books available from Amazon.com (here in the U.S.).

    Discovering Mary: Answers to Questions about the Mother of God by David Mills (St. Anthony Messenger Press, 2009).

    Encyclopedia of Mary by Monica Dodds and Bill Dodds (Our Sunday Visitor, 2007).

    *****

    However, locating resources of the traditional Anglican perspective is more difficult.

    highchurchman...I discovered that one of the resources you mentioned is available from Amazon.com as a print-on-demand product: An Exposition of the Creed by John Pearson and William Stephen Dobson. Would you please check the link and make sure that this is indeed the book you are suggesting. And, by the way, which creed(s) is the focus of the exposition in this book?

    Unfortunately, The Blessed Virgin Mary in Three Centuries of Anglicanism by James A. Shuel is listed as unavailable on Amazon.com. And the book itself is only located in four libraries here in North America, according to Worldcat.org, the library index used most frequently for interlibrary loan.

    On a positive note, however, I was able to locate a website for The Convent Society of the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada, the publisher of The Blessed Virgin Mary in Three Centuries of Anglicanism. Unfortunately, their website was last updated on 01/11/2006. I did try sending an e-mail to the e-mail address listed on the website. But, I received a message that the "recipient failed permanently.


    :o

    *****

    highchurchman and others, are there additional resources (links or books) on the Anglican perspective of the doctrine of Mary?

    Thank you.

    ...Scottish Monk