Did God Create Hell?

Discussion in 'Questions?' started by Tiffy, Feb 27, 2021.

  1. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Actually it is NOT. Gnosticism is the notion that the physical creation was not created by God but by a Demiurge and that the material creation is evil while the Spiritual is good.

    I have not suggested any of that to be true. I have simply pointed out what St Paul did, that the resurrection body is a spiritual body, not a physical one like we have in this life here and now. If that is Gnosticism then St Paul was a Gnostic. I'll leave you to argue that out with St Paul yourself when you eventually get issued with your 'spiritual' resurrection body. :laugh: Good luck with that, Paul knew his theology and was a keen debater.
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  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    In Rev. 20:14, "hell" is sheol, the grave. Death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire. Of course death can't feel anything, and of course the grave can't feel anything; that does not provide any indication that the human inhabitants wouldn't feel anything. Fact is, they do.
    Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Annihilation is tantamount to saying, "You unrighteous, go ahead and sin your tails off; there are no long-term consequences. You atheists and agnostics, go ahead and continue in unbelief; you already think there is no afterlife, and you'll get what you expect, no negative consequences."

    Jesus didn't say, 'those who believe not will sleep forever.' He said, he that believeth not shall be damned. If being damned is no more than annihilation, it's literally nothing to fear or avoid; one can rape, pillage, murder, and one night go to sleep and never wake up... whoop-te-doo, people pay big money for expensive mattresses, pillows, and sleep aids to get a good rest like that! :laugh:
     
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  3. Rhys

    Rhys Member

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    I agree, but I contend that Scripture teaches that the torment is in Sheol, not in the lake of fire, per the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

    This line of criticism is more applicable to Universalism, IMO. Annihilationism teaches that the long-term consequences are torment in Sheol until the final judgement. Any unrighteous person, be they atheist or agnostic, would be in for a rude awakening if they think there is no afterlife for them. The evangelical message is more or less unchanged: give this life to Christ to gain eternal life; bear fruits worthy of repentance because there is judgement hereafter. The only difference is that judgement has a finality (a death sentence, if you will), whereas in the majority opinion judgement is continual and unending. (Which, as an aside, makes little logical sense to me).

    I will say that 'soul-sleep' (as promoted by Luther, et. al.) has little Scriptural support. A particular judgement (Calvin et. al.) and intermediate state (Wesley, et. al.) are more in line with Biblical thinking.
     
  4. Rhys

    Rhys Member

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    The resurrection arguably has a physical dimension. Are the New Heaven and New Earth non-material?
     
  5. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    We don't seem to be specifically offered that information in scripture, unless one chooses to be literalist about every mention of our future life or second 'death', in God's presence.

    I notice though that there are precious few Biblical references backing up most of the claims that are freely being bandied about in this thread up until now.

    We all have our own theories about heavenly conditions, but may we all also see exactly upon what scriptural evidence others claim them to be valid please?

    Chapter and verse would be nice so we can check out whether the ideas stand up against actual scripture. Not that I want to stifle debate or limit the range of ideas, just that I want to discover for myself the scriptural basis from which the 'folklore', if that is what it is, has evolved.
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  6. Thomas Didymus

    Thomas Didymus Member

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    Cool subject, Tiffy.

    It is my understanding that Christ died to forgive us of our wrath against Him. This includes up from the time of the Garden of Eden, the moment of crucifixion of our Christ, Jesus, and after to the ages to come. The judgement or second death we face after our bodily, earthly death is our own judgement against ourselves. It's not so much that God is being taken out of the equation more so than it is God being the force behind the separation of His soul we lived through and our body we lived in while we were physically alive, respectively.

    Like a movie, we are shown where we could have done things better that were within our power to do so. Where we were rightfully merciful in our conduct towards others and all walks of life, God will show us mercy (Matthew 5:7 & James 2:13).

    The same thing happens with our sins. They weigh us down, further and deeper into Hell. We die in our sins, not because of our sins. Basically, what we have done in life is, in turn, done to ourselves. I say this as a matter of concept rather than speaking as literally happening in the definite sense of the word. By no means is this to be taken as Karma or works-based only redemption. We only have one life to live so we have to make the most of it. We have to make it count so that our life here in the physical is prepared for the spiritual, together in unity:

    Romans 8:23-24 RSV
    23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I cannot justify my opinion on this by chapter and verse but I think that The New Creation will be an improvement on the one that exists at the moment. Therefore whatsoever things are beautiful, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtuous characteristic, and if there be any praiseworthy factor, if there be anything wonderfully made, The New Creation will have them all. If having a physical dimention is good, then we shall have that too, and more.
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  8. Thomas Didymus

    Thomas Didymus Member

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    Just throwing this out there even though it's not Scripture; in Dante's Inferno elemental science is present throughout the depiction of Hell. The upper levels are fiery, flaming, and hot. These are closer to Heaven in the literal and figurative sense. Those who survive the judgement ascend to Heaven much like heat rises in the air. In contrast, the lower levels are cold, isolated, and desolate. Cold air is heavy, staying close to the surface, rarely rising without outside interference. Hence, very far away from anything Godly or heavenly. These scientific principles go as far back as the understanding of the ancient Greeks. Considering how grounded Medieval culture and theology is in Inferno, this is very interesting.

    Keep in mind, when Dante originally wrote Inferno, he had not fleshed out any concept of Purgatory yet before officials within the Roman Catholic Church encouraged him to write Purgatorio. Correct me if I'm wrong about this last bit.

    Some scripture, without meaning to suggest postmortem salvation:

    Zechariah 13:9 RSV:
    9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
    They will call on my name,
    and I will answer them.
    I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”


    1 Peter 7:1 RSV:
    7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  9. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I would say that the refining by fire takes place in this life. Not that everyone's faith is exposed to terrible difficulties, but we all face temptations to cast away our confidence. Some have their faith tried through martyrdom, but for most people the trials are far less extreme.
     
  10. Thomas Didymus

    Thomas Didymus Member

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    Admittedly, this subject I'm not too familiar with, so this has been a very good opportunity to learn. I was watching a video featuring R.C. Sproul earlier off of YouTube about the youth losing their faith while entering college. It was brought to my attention there's a difference between assurance of faith and perseverance of faith, that it's easy to misinterpret these two when reading Hebrews 6.

    This may sound kind of Eastern Orthodoxy regarding Hell--one line of thought is that to a saintly person Hell will look like a wicked and evil place, while for the worst among sinners, on the other hand, will look appealing in a twisted and morally perverse way.