Did Dr. Richard Hooker teach that episcopacy was a separate order?

Discussion in 'Sacraments, Sacred Rites, and Holy Orders' started by Spherelink, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

    Posts:
    545
    Likes Received:
    246
    Religion:
    Unhinged SC Anglican
    Taking from another thread, where it was said
    I decided to read more of the Divine's opinions. Not having a hard copy I managed to find the quote here:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=O84CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA114#v=onepage&q&f=false

    The whole section 6 abounds in strong statements. To wit, a bishop excels a presbyter in the power of Order and Jurisdiction. Presbyters are denied to have any power to Ordain. And "bishops, having power to ordain, do by virtue thereof create Fathers to the people of God." Then there's the above quote, where those who equate the Orders of bishops and presbyters, viz. the Presbyterians are ridiculed. Would be interesting to know if any experts on Dr. Hooker can shed a little more light into his views.
     
  2. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    724
    Likes Received:
    717
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    High-Church Laudian
    Spherelink likes this.
  3. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    103
    Likes Received:
    41
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    I had thought these ideas would be pretty non controversial in Anglicanism. Priests can't ordain, can they?
     
  4. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

    Posts:
    545
    Likes Received:
    246
    Religion:
    Unhinged SC Anglican
    Not at all. It's an argument that the history books say some Evangelicals once made, though I can't really say I've understood it. So to answer your question, no.

    Yeah he cites Dr. Hooker to the same purpose.
     
  5. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

    Posts:
    545
    Likes Received:
    246
    Religion:
    Unhinged SC Anglican
    I've always believed that the church was comprised of two orders of bishops and deacons. I was catechized in a strongly Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian community a little over 20 years ago. We were told that priests derived from the order of bishops.

    SirPalomides, I was surprised by your quote from an early divine arguing for priests as a third order.
     
  6. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    103
    Likes Received:
    41
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    Historically, that is true. The terms "bishop" and "presbyter" are used interchangeably in the New Testament. However, as the church grew, the office of presbyter emerged as a deputy for the bishop which eventually became a permanent part of the clergy. For the much greater part of Church history, priests have been a separate office from the bishops.
     
  7. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

    Posts:
    545
    Likes Received:
    246
    Religion:
    Unhinged SC Anglican
    What do you think of the argument that it's the presbyters who were the foundational order and the bishops developed out of it?

    Granted, Dr. Hooker argues against it here, but I did hear it made in conversations with my presbyterian colleagues.
     
  8. SirPalomides

    SirPalomides Active Member

    Posts:
    103
    Likes Received:
    41
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Orthodox Christian
    Since the bishops have power to ordain and priests do not, it seems to me that the Presbyterians are wrong.
     
  9. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

    Posts:
    545
    Likes Received:
    246
    Religion:
    Unhinged SC Anglican
    Hm, I hadn't thought of it like that. Wouldn't the presbyterians also say that they can ordain?