Debating becoming a Traditional Roman Catholic

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by Khater, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. Khater

    Khater Member

    Posts:
    41
    Likes Received:
    14
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Traditional Catholic-SSPX
    Your attitude is disgusting and extremely uncharitable. I come here looking for advice, and you mock me and make assumptions about my beliefs. Disagreeing is one thing, but your hostility is uncalled for.

    The priests I have been talking to all teach at the Dominican House of Studies( a well-respected orthodox Catholic seminary) Again, why should I listen to you and not them when it comes to Catholic Doctrine? They're not all young guys. I was just pointing out that the lecture I posted was given by a fairly young priest. Thomism is in the minority, but still alive in the Catholic Church.

    Let me make my position clear. I am ( and always have been) an Augustinian theologically. When I called myself a "Calvinist" in previous posts, I was using the term broadly. I respect the High-Anglican/Tractarian tradition because it follows St. Augustine in most things. I've read through the 39 Articles and the Homilies several times. I've also read Hooker's Learned Discourse on Justification, several sections of Browne's Exposition of the 39 Articles, a number of sermons by J. C Ryle( who seems very devout and Godly, but also wrong on Sacraments), several sermons by Pusey, and quite a bit from modern theologians. Peter Leithart, N. T Wright, Rich Lusk, etc) Leithart and Lusk aren't Anglican, but they're both pretty close theologically.

    My view of most Protestants/Evangelicals has never been very good. I love them as brothers in Christ, but don't have much respect for their theology. Most Protestants( and I'd include Evangelical Anglicans) have nothing in common with the Fathers. We have not studied the Fathers at Christendom. I've been reading them independently in my free time. Their view of the Sacraments is esentialy the same as the view held by Catholics, Orthodox, and High-Anglicans. Most Anglicans do not hold to the sacrificial nature of the Mass. All of the Fathers did.

    Again, the Tractarian tradition within Anglicanism is very respectable, but also in the minority. The Tractarians were treated with great hostility by Evangelicals.

    I'm an Augustinian with a high view of the Sacramentss. I want to be clear in saying that I'm not a sectarian ( in fact, I'm quite hostile to sectarianism) if one is validly baptized, believes in Christ, holds to the Creedss, and is repentant, I consider them a brother in Christ. Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterians, and Baptists are all legitimate Christians. I think some Protestants are in serious error theologically, but I still view them as brothers. Faith in Christ is what matters. People aren't going to be damned for minor doctrinal differences.

    For me, it's either Tractarianism or Thomism at this point.
     
    anglican74 likes this.
  2. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    927
    Likes Received:
    684
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    I am not sure how we got on the hostility train... Perhaps it was my fault, or perhaps there was a supercilious tone in your posts, or perhaps I charitably meant to correct you but you took it as hostility... If nothing untoward was meant from your end then I surely intend none on mine


    The biggest reason is this:

    You can listen to the "Novus Ordo conservatives", who will position themselves between the liberal modernists, and the "excessive" Latin-Rite trads... They will have the proof texts from Papal encyclicals and a whole theory of history that revolves around George Neuhaus, Pope John Paul II, and the triumph of conservativism... If you spend time around them, you'll be convinced that everyone else is wrong

    Or you can listen to the Latin-Rite trads... They will have their own proof texts from Catholic history, quote the Council of Trent, and Benedict XVI, and argue that both the "liberal" Novus Ordo trads, and the "excessive" SSPX groups are bad... If you spend time around them, you'll be convinced that everyone else is wrong

    Or you can listen to the SSPX... They will argue that the entire Vatican 2 was a heresy, and anyone who accepts it (ie. Novus Ordo and Latin-Rite trads) are "liberals" who must be avoided; and on the other side, the Sedevacantists are "excessive"... They will have their own persuasive theory of history, their Michael Davies, Archbishop Lefebvre, their Pope Pius X... If you spend time around them, you'll be convinced that everyone else is wrong

    Or, finally you can listen to the Sedevacantists... they will have a totally different view of history, a very persuasive case from Pius X and Thomas Aquinas that condemns all modern popes as formal heretics... If you spend enough time around them, you'll be 100% convinced that everyone else is wrong

    My point is, each of these groups has a completely persuasive theory of history, and who is right. Whichever one of these you become is thus entirely the luck of the draw...

    -If you are in Winona, or go to St. Mary's in Kansas you'll become a convinced SSPXer
    -if you are/were around the Fisher/More College or Christendom, you'll become a convinced Latin-Rite trad
    -if you are around Steubenville, you'll become a convinced Novus Ordo trad
    -and if you're around none of those, you'll become a Sedevacantist

    For this reason I would treat with a great deal of caution the apologetic the young Dominican priests are feeding you; their entire purpose at that college is to convert all young fresh-cheeked freshmen to their point of view, and make Benedict XVI and Thomas the heroes of history... Had you gone to Steubenville, you would be equally convinced that John Paul II and Richard Neuhaus were the apostles of the future... And had you gone to St. Mary's in Kansas, you'd be equally convinced that the folks at Christendom were "liberal" and "heretical"

    It is a culture within the Catholic trad world to draw a very thin circle, call yourself the Pure Warrior Of Truth, and condemn all others as Heretics

    I've been in that world, and I tell you it is very hard to dispute when you're inside that bubble... The only way to refute it is to avoid getting brainwashed by that particular group's theory of history... I hope you see how I mean all this charitably
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  3. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    927
    Likes Received:
    684
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    For example, as pertains that passage on the Pope's powers from Lumen Gentium 25a (which is clear and unequivocal as to its grammatical meaning), here is how each of the groups will interpret it:


    Liberals:
    (under conservative Popes) "we refuse to listen to LG 25a, and we will not submit and obey"
    (under Pope Francis) "Lumen Gentium says everyone must obey Pope Francis!"

    Novus Ordo conservatives:
    (under conservative Popes): "See, Lumen Gentium mirrors the eternal Magisterium, and you liberals must obey!"
    (under Pope Francis): "ugh, why does Lumen Gentium we must submit... We will grumble in private but outwardly submit and accept what Francis teaches"

    Latin-Rite trads:
    (under conservative Popes): "Lumen Gentium is right about Papal submission, even if it has other heresies"
    (under Pope Francis): "we hate Lumen Gentium, we knew it was heretical all along, we refuse to submit and obey!" (just like the liberals)

    Sedevacantists:
    (under conservative Popes): "Your conservative Popes are still heretics, and Lumen Gentium doesn't exist to us and isn't binding"
    (under Pope Francis): "told you that Lumen Gentium doesn't exist and isn't binding"
     
  4. Ide

    Ide Active Member

    Posts:
    184
    Likes Received:
    203
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hello Khater,

    I can't speak to the detailed theological points presented here as I'm not as well versed as others in this regard. However, I have had many similar misgivings are you regarding the state of the Anglican communion. While I've been studying Anglicanism recently and trying to discern my place within the church, I've come to realize that if everyone who opposes the liberalizing and destructive actions (women's ordination, for example) leaves, there will be no resistance to stop it from going further. I have a feeling that even the Catholic church isn't going to be spared this phenomenon- when studying about it recently, I was shocked at all the current divisions inside and outside the church. So, I'm trying to determine how best to be faithful to God and to know where I can serve Him best. I will pray for you in your journey.
     
    Aidan likes this.
  5. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    1,827
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    American Anglican
    Khater,

    If you are a follower of Tractarian thought, I hope you'll consider visiting a parish in one of the Continuing Churches such as the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC), Anglican Province in America (APA), or Anglican Church in America (ACA). You may find a home there.
     
    Anne and Botolph like this.
  6. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

    Posts:
    113
    Likes Received:
    100
    Might I suggest The Apology by John Jewel? It is a classic and can provide some of the answers to your questions you seek.

    http://www.anglican.net/works/john-jewel-apology-answer-defence-church-of-england/
     
    Lowly Layman likes this.
  7. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    927
    Likes Received:
    684
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    Here is another example of how different groups of Catholics interpret the Papacy... @Khater's "conservative" advisors teach that Catholics do not have to listen to the Popes! If that sounds weird, that's because it is, for here are statements from the Roman Popes themselves, directly contradicting these so-called "conservatives"


    =============================================

    Pope Pius X:

    "How must the Pope be loved? "Not in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth" (1 Jn iii, 18). When one loves a person, one tries to adhere in everything to his thoughts, to fulfill his will, to perform his wishes. And if Our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself, "if any one love me, he will keep my word" (Jn xiv, 23) therefore, in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him.

    Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey - that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope."


    -Pope Pius X, Notre Charge Apostolique

    =============================================

    Pope Leo XIII:

    "It is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them."

    -Pope Leo XIII, Epistola Tua (1885)

    =============================================


    What say you, @Khater? More importantly, what say your Dominicans!..
     
    Anglican04 likes this.
  8. Khater

    Khater Member

    Posts:
    41
    Likes Received:
    14
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Traditional Catholic-SSPX
    1. None of those statements are infallible ( the Popes were not speaking Ex Cathedra)
    2. When they talk about "submission", you've got to understand what that means. Here's what another Traditional priest told me

    "As a Catholic, you must accept the authority of the Pope who is the duly elected pontiff of the Holy Catholic Church whom Our Lord affirms. But we must be clear on what that means. We submit to his teaching which is in line with the Holy Magisterium. We do not submit to anything that deviates from the Holy Magisterium or anything not taught from the chair of St. Peter, i.e., ex cathedra."
     
  9. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    927
    Likes Received:
    684
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican (ACNA)
    How shall you know what is in line with the Magisterium? Will you use your private judgment, like a Protestant? The authentic Catholic teaching has always been that you must not submit the teachings of the Church to your own judgment, but rather, whatever the Church teaches, you submit and obey


    I suppose the deeper question is, how do you even know he is Traditional, or even a Catholic? Just by the social values he holds? There are many conservatives out there, such as Mormons like Mitt Romney, who in the department of Conservativism, rejecting abortion and gay marriage, wearing sharp ties and being preppy, would give a run for the money with any Trad Catholic or Anglican! So if you can't judge these people by their social beliefs, or attire, then what do you use to evaluate their actual Catholicism?

    As I've shown above, there are at least 4-5 different variants of Catholicism, each of which will anathematize the others as non-Catholic or less-than-Catholic... How do you decide that the one you've got is the real deal?

    For example, other strands of Catholicism would not say what this "Traditional priest" told you... They would consider him a liberal and a heretic for denying the power of the papacy... in fact Pope Pius X, perhaps the most conservative pope of the last 500 years, said (in the quote above!), that Catholics must not decide what they will and won't follow of the Papal teachings, but submit to all, and he would consider your "Traditional priest" to be an outright liberal and a modernist!
     
  10. Anne

    Anne Active Member Anglican

    Posts:
    183
    Likes Received:
    200
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglo-Catholic
    Friend, from your comments it's sounding more and more that you simply need to find a Continuing Church.
     
    DivineOfficeNerd likes this.
  11. Anglican04

    Anglican04 Active Member Anglican

    Posts:
    165
    Likes Received:
    112
    This is such an amazing post, thank you!
     

Share This Page