Cases of aberrant devotions to Mary in the Roman Church

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Stalwart, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Um, He was, but only because He was God. Whereas today's "woke" people think that their life experiences and the experiences of others in their "oppressed" group give them special knowledge that all others lack, Jesus really, truly did have special knowledge that He was the Messiah and God the Son (but He opened not His mouth against His oppressors when they condemned Him). And so He wasn't "woke" in the same sense that the word is being used nowadays by its advocates.
     
  2. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    You surprise me. I thought 'woke' was a denegratory term used by the opponents of people who care about the fate of others. Wasn't it supposed to be an insult? I just can't keep up nowadays with modern semantics. :confused: :no:
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  3. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    You're the one who asked, "Wasn't Jesus woke?" :rolleyes:

    Besides, it's the term is also being used by the people who consider themselves to be "woke." I'm pretty sure they originated it and they are happy to say that they want everyone to be "woke."
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I can certainly imagine Pharisees accusing Jesus of being 'woke', because it seems they most definitely weren't, neither at one critical time were his own disciples. Luke 22:45-46.

    St Paul considered himself 'woke' too it seems. Eph.5:12-16. Rom.13:11. 1 Cor.15:34. So it would seem that scripture generally has good things to say about being 'woke'. Ps.3:5-6. :laugh: So there is a precedent for wanting everyone to get 'woke', I suppose, especially if they or we are perishing. Mark 4:38.
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  5. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Woke as a political term of African American origin refers to a perceived awareness of issues concerning social justice and racial justice. It is derived from the African-American Vernacular English expression "stay woke", whose grammatical aspect refers to a continuing awareness of these issues.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

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    For those who would broadly consider themselves woke, the word has been weaponized against them. But the Fox/Young brigade often claim the same.

    The origins of woke, in this context – as forged by African American communities – dates back at least to the 60s, but its mainstream ubiquity is a recent development. Fuelled by black musicians, social media and the #BlackLivesMatter movement, the term entered the Oxford English Dictionary only in 2017, by which time it had become as much a fashionable buzzword as a set of values. Some of those who didn’t keep up with the trend felt left behind: if you didn’t know the meaning of woke, you weren’t.

    Rather than rejecting the concept of wokeness outright, today’s detractors often claim they are rejecting the word as a signifier of pretentiousness and “cultural elitism”. However, as Fox and others have shown, it is as much to do with the issues of racial and social justice. Criticising “woke culture” has become a way of claiming victim status for yourself rather than acknowledging that more deserving others hold that status. It has gone from a virtue signal to a dog whistle. The language has been successfully co-opted – but as long as the underlying injustices remain, new words will emerge to describe them.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society...how-the-word-woke-was-weaponised-by-the-right

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    woke
    The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue
    Yeah most people don't care about parking spaces for families with disabled pets. I wish they were woke like me.
    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woke

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    As it happens the term finds its early origins with Abraham Lincoln, where the Republican Party rad an add campaign in support of Lincoln under the headline 'Stay Awake' and that campaign was intended to stop the spread of slavery.

    The question really has to be would Jesus be woke today (WWJD), and what sort of woke would that be. The sad truth is that there was a man who could not breath, and when the protest arose, and got a little out of hand, a number of people claimed that they were the victims. Now all of this takes a deal of wrangling, however what is needed to resolve these issues, is to hear and value each other. Until that happens nothing happens.

    The image that sparked this new burst in this thread calls us to reflect on how jingoistic we want our faith to be. Richard Niebuhr's The Kingdom of God in America, was a classic, and sadly it has often been understood to have been mistitled, for they believe that the Kingdom of God is America.

    So from memory, from that work

    So it was A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgement through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross
    We need to be far more awake than whatever woke might mean at the present moment.
     
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  6. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Having explored that particular rabbit run . . . . . what about the downsides of idolising the Mother of God. Would even she disapprove of some of the excesses she is humiliatingly subjected to by her misguided, over-enthusiastic devotees?
     
  7. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    IMHO Protestants get too worked over the "mediatrix" title. I've never met a rightly catechized Roman Catholic who didn't fully assent to 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

    But they also recognize that their are lesser, subordinate mediators/mediatrixes. And we do too, though we don't know we do. Abraham mediated on behalf of Sodom and Gemorrah, Moses on the people of Israel, etc. And if protestants truly believed in no other mediators they would never ask for others' to pray for them.

    “Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.”

    The language is hyperbolic and poetic, but not heretical or idolatrous. St. Gabriel the Archangel proclaimed he was "highly favored" or "full of grace" and was chosen by God to be the Mother of God. From her womb came the Holy Incarnation. She is therefore the Theotokos, the God bearer, who brought forth Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World, King of Kings, from whom all Graces flow. In that sense, she is the Queen Mother, without whom there is no manger, no cross, no resurrection,no ascension. Those are just facts pulled from the Gospel. Therefore,she is a co-worker in Christ's mediation between God and man. Nothing aberrant in any of that.
     
  8. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Whoa! "Nothing aberrant"????

    Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

    Mary most certainly is not Mediatrix (capital "M" denoting primacy) of all the graces we receive; Jesus is our one and only 'capital M' Mediator. Mary did not personally make satisfaction for our sins and indeed would have been unable to do so, for only a sinless person could die for the sins of all, and Mary was a sinner in need of God's grace like the rest of us.

    Nothing made Mary indispensible. There is no good reason to say of Mary, "without whom there is not manger, no cross, no resurrection..." Were the earliest descendants of Adam all indispensable, or did God make a new start for mankind through just one man, Noah? Was Moses indispensable to the Israelites, or could God have raised up another leader? Was Solomon indispensable, or could God have worked through another man? No mortal human has ever been indispensable in God's plan. If Mary had not been willing, God would not have approached her for the task of bearing Jesus; instead He would have foreordained another woman for the honor and privilege.

    That's right, it was a privilege for Mary to bear the Son of God. We all are privileged to have become children of God by grace through faith, but that doesn't mean the rest of unsaved humanity should put us on a pedestal and look up to us. Nor should any of us have put Mary up on a pedestal as someone greater or higher than the rest of us followers of Christ. Mary is one of us, a sinner saved by grace like us, a believer and a disciple like us, no greater and no less.
     
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  9. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    So your issue is capitalization? That's a new one for me

    You say nothing made Mary indispensible. But 1 thing does: God. Going back to the protoevangelion in Genesis, it is clear that God's plan was for salvation to come from a woman's seed. That woman out of all women that had ever been or ever would be, was Mary. But you know better than God which part of His plan is dispensible and which is not? I don't think I can walk with you off that plank.
     
  10. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    and yet God chose Mary for this task, and I would choose not to be disparaging of God's choices, of which I am a most unworthy beneficiary through the merits of he Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
  11. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Sorry to be pedantic, (but you know how us Agnostics are), but I don't believe Gabriel was an Archangel let alone the Archangel.:p
     
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  12. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Well, I wouldn't be surprised if you were agnostic on that point, lol. It has been a feature of sacred tradition that the"Angel of the Lord" that announced to Mary and appeared to Zacharius was St. Gabriel. Regardlessof whether it was or wasn't, the point remains that the Angel allegedly named Gabriel claimed Mary was full of grace and therefore, we can follow that lead.
     
  13. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Some people see, "Hail Mary, full of grace," and they get a mental picture of a woman who is holier than the rest, better than the rest, more deserving than the rest. They picture Mary as a woman chosen by God because she was full of this special inner beauty called "grace." That idea is inaccurate.

    What is grace? While not a comprehensive definition, one could loosely define grace as the unmerited favor and gift of Almighty God. The thing I want to call attention to is the fact that grace is a gift from God which He gives to a person who doesn't deserve it. Grace descends from God and is bestowed by His sovereign strength; receiving God's grace does not reflect any merit or specialness on the part of the recipient (beyond the fact that grace is usually received through faith in God). Therefore, for Mary to be full of grace speaks of God's greatness and goodness infinitely more than of Mary's.
     
  14. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I concur with this statement. Mary's yes behold I am the handmaid of the Lord is a response to grace, and a response with grace to participate in grace. It is by this yes that the great moment in the story began to unfold as the word became flesh and dwelt among us and so we see Mary's meaning and purpose to to faithfully bear Jesus into the world. As such whilst he role is unique, so each one of us in our unique way are also called to bear Jesus into the world, and each of us will know that our so doing is but a pale reflection of what Mary did, and more precisely what God did through Mary.
     
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