Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by anglican74, Mar 18, 2018.
Vatican 2 is not dogma nor article of faith
Do you think Vatican II is a valid council?
Let our members be reminded that we affirm the traditional and historic Anglican definition based in the Creeds, the Formularies, and the Prayer Books. Impugning this violates the terms of this community.
Talking with Roman Catholic friends and reading Roman Catholic theologians disabused me of the notion that the Roman communion represented some kind of rock of theological uniformity.
Ever read the 39 articles?
The only problem is that a lot of Anglicans breach them by allowing things such as Anglo-Catholicism and saying that they're just a spectrum. That is, most people agree with a large portion but may doubt at least a few. If you want to believe in most of them but invoke saints, Mary, etc. then that's fine. If you want to believe most of them but deny original sin because you consider yourself "Anglo-Orthodox" then that's fine. I don't know why it is even championed when I keep hearing people talking about this stuff on the forum. I too, thought it was a solid foundation, but am getting disillusioned at hearing people say otherwise. The part where it talks about justification by faith seems to promote a protestant reformed view until you ask someone who says it can be justification as defined by Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox, or even Calvinist. All that matters supposedly is that it says we need faith for justification, but what follows afterwards is open ended. Anglicanism doesn't really have a unified view of Salvation. I find myself wondering how we can be so ambiguous about something as precious as the process of salvation itself.
Unfortunately it comes from both sides. I know of as many (if not more) of the reformed who violate the Articles and the overall Anglican tradition.
For example, do you know of a single Anglican parish with gregorian chant on your typical sundays? That's what Cathedral services in England traditionally were like, prior to the introduction of modern hymns in the 19th century. To a traditional Anglican, the word 'hymn' refers to a Te Deum, or a Gloria, or such like.
Also the Prayerbook clearly states that you could read it, or sing it. Can we all imagine what a beautiful sung liturgy we could and should have? I don't know of a any Reformed-minded person who is learning how to chant the liturgy.
Not surprised at that... they're probably all singing the "Hillsong" style music that is becoming so popular in the non-denom and televangelist style churchs
Don't knock it. My mom just came back from a Contemporary Christian music concert. It may seem a bit subpar by the musical standards of many, but keep in mind that God uses the average and rugged things in everyday life to do a whole lot of good in the world. Jesus slept in a manger and that was good enough for him. We don't even know what the psalms mentioned in the New Testament that Paul says we should offer up in praise were really like, whether they were acapella or even very musical at all. A lot of very humble and Godly people I know listen to CCM, including Catholics of every branch. The songs are not always distinguished but there's enough melody in it for them to sing along and take in the message. Helps them to remember it.
I think our view of the past can be rather rose tinted. Complaints about church music are nothing new. In polyphonic Mass settings the cantus firmus was often taken from a liturgical chant but some composers started using popular folk tunes instead. This drew complaints of liturgical impropriety from some quarters. The Council of Trent held a session dealing with church music and abuses associated with music and the Mass.
Cranmer disliked ornate church music. For the 1549 BCP he engaged John Merbecke to produce simple plainsong settings for services. The result was The Book of Common Prayer Noted. This had a very short lifespan and was rendered obsolete when the more Reformed second BCP was introduced with its different stance on music. Very few copies of The BCP Noted have survived; it was the Tractarians who rediscovered it in the 19th century.
Hymn singing was strickly speaking illegal in the CofE until 1821. The singing of metrical psalms was standard fare in the parishes. BCP's were often bound together with a metrical psalter, initially the Sternhold & Hopkins version and later the Brady & Tate version. In more illiterate parishes the clerk would 'line out' the metrical psalms. (The clerk would sing one line of the psalm at a time and this would be repeated parrot fashion by the congregation.)
English church music really began to flourish under Elizabeth I with composers like Byrd and Tallis (themselves Catholic) writing complex settings for BCP services but this was mostly confined to the royal chapels or cathedrals.
In the 18th and earlier 19th centuries west gallery choirs were common in the parishes. These were groups of singers and instrumentalists who sang and accompanied metrical psalms and some hymns often to lively 'fugueing tunes.' Organs were still relatively uncommon outside of cathedrals and larger parish churches. Instruments might have included violin, cello, flute, clarinet, bassoon or serpent.
I'm an organist and play a lot of English Baroque organ music. There are many tuneful trumpet, cornet and flute voluntaries as well as prelude and fugue voluntaries from the period. I was doing a bit of research recently and found that some 18th century church musicians felt that the trumpet, cornet and flute voluntaries were too frivolous to be played on 'Sacrament Sundays' when Holy Communion was celebrated.
The Tractarians and Ritualists wanted to reintroduce dignity and beauty in worship and return to more medieval practices. 'Hymns Ancient and Modern' was a product of that time. The ancient hymns were early hymns translated from Latin and Greek; the modern ones being those written at the time. The Tractarians were keen on having a choral service so the psalms and canticles were sung to Anglican Chant with books of pointed psalms and chants being published. Surpliced choirs were introduced to sing the services. All this was seen as the height of 'Popery' amongst Evangelicals of the time.