Discussion in 'Sacraments, Sacred Rites, and Holy Orders' started by Andy Cothran, Jul 14, 2012.
Yes and i forgive you if it is even waranted ..Could we send out for some Brandy instead ?
Yep brandy is good after all it is distilled wine is it not hic...
Yes it is basically ..My grandfather used to make apple brandy of course that was long before i was born ..
To what list of requirements are you referring?
I've given you Biblical support for Graces imparted during Baptism.
Please provide Biblical support for your view that Baptism is an Ordinance.
I didn't say there was a prescribed formula for salvation. To what are you referring, when you speak of a "prescribe formula for salvation"?
Yes, general remarks to address common misconceptions.
ANNA to avoid confusion my responses are in bold black under your questions above ..
Well we're not proof-texting. We're looking to the passages that describe the Sacraments and interpreting them in a traditional, holistic manner. Here's what we're trying to say.
Anna i deleted my last two posts to you because i want to avoid tension .. I think i need to do a better job communicating with people in general . I am going to to answer you as respectfully as i can and after that i am going to leave it alone
I don't have a view regarding whether baptisim is a sacrament or and ordinance
In my view you are proposing that salvation is dependent normally on obedience .. Now Adam provided me with a different perspective and perhaps it might have been a better way of saying what you were trying to say . If so then i understand but. i cannot accept what you are saying in the way you are saying it ..To me its just another way of saying that you must do a b c and d ..or you are going to H E LL .. Now i may have misunderstood you and i would be willing to certainly go back and read your replies more carefully ..i admit that something could have been lost in translation .. i am not attacking you here .. we are not going to agree on this . but you did your job you answer me from your theological perspective which is to be expected and i am not expecting anything else from you ..
Far be it from me to speak for Anna, who has done some awesome "heavy lifting" in this thread. I will say that Anna and I are on the same page regarding Baptism. I think that part of the challenge in explaining it comes from a certain Protestant mindset - one that I had for many years. Basically, those with that mindset are asking "What must I do to be saved?" The answer that is given is to "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ." Anglicans do not dispute this. What sometimes follows is where the confusion arises. Protestants will point to a moment of salvation, perhaps connected to an altar call or the Sinner's Prayer. Baptism is then seen as unconnected to the moment of salvation. Those who claim that it is connected are believed to be adding a "work" to the saving faith.
We're not doing that, because God is doing his work in us. We receive his grace. For Anglicans, salvation is both a moment and a lifetime. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Our lives are filled with opportunities for sin and for godliness. We should seek out the forgiveness of sins and the means to combat temptation. We should seek out ways to grow in holiness, drawing ever nearer to God. The Sacraments provide those very graces. God instructs us to live a certain way, he gives us gracious gifts to help us follow his will, and he then tells us to make use of them.
What Anna is pointing out is the Scriptural basis for how we understand Baptism. Though the Bible never says "Be baptized or else!", it does command us to be baptized. The Sacraments impart graces to us (and there are other means of grace as well, such as the preaching of the Word, and prayer). It would be foolish to spurn the means of grace if we have a chance to receive them, and to do so out of pride would be sin. So, while we are not saying that one must be baptized to experience the remission of sin, we do confess one baptism for the remission of sin. When God works through other means, praise him for his mercy and grace! But we know that he works through baptism and that he commands it, so it is acceptable to call it a requirement. It is ordinarily the means by which one is brought into the Church. There are extraordinary means, but we don't use them as loopholes or excuses (NOT referring to you at all ).
It is totally fine for a non-Anglican, on this board or elsewhere, to disagree. I'm not sure what kind of Protestant you are, so forgive me if I said things that you already know. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, nor do I intend to attack anyone's different belief (I'm in a good mood today ). Just wanted to see if I could contribute something useful. For what it's worth, Luther had a similar understanding of Baptism. Even Calvin saw it as a means of grace. Minimizing Baptism's spiritual importance or changing the time of its reception are fairly recent ideas, from a theological perspective.
I don't wish to discuss this any further and frankly i see that it was a mistake to join this site ..I would like my account deleted .
But in any case i will not be responding to any more posts or asking of any of you any more questions ..Thank You all and Goodbye
Nice. That's 10 minutes I won't get back.
Why am I always the last one to know there is a fire? Thanks for sending in the fireman.
I am sorry but I am confused...
Why do people ask questions if they are not prepared to discuss them when they are answered?
One thing that I would like to make very clear, is that nothing I wrote about Baptism was in any way intended to mean that one "must do a b c and d ..or you are going to H E LL."
I do not speculate or imply the destiny of anyone's soul. That judgement is reserved for God.
I do not have the right or power to even pass judgement on my own soul. To use the words of St. Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling.
Peace and blessings,
I believe most of us know that Anna - I think sometimes people ask questions with an underlying agenda and any answer that doesn't fit within the framework of the agenda is considered a personal attack on the person asking the question. All one can do really is just disengage with the person concerned with blessings and move on.
Thanks so much for your comments.
You are right, and I did disengage. I just didn't want anyone to misinterpret what I was saying.
Peace and blessings,
Gordon sometimes the way that answers are delivered causes the person asking the question to feel leary of engaging further or sometimes the person asking the question has some personal difficulty that is going on in their life and are feeling very stressed ..So that small irritations or obstacles become big ones very quickly ..
Gordon i deny youre implication and i think it is very uncharitable to me on a personal level ..Though my replies might be challenging to you
You have no right to suggest that i have and angenda other than what have already stated . For the record and let me make this as clear as can
I do not see a disagreement regarding doctrine as a personal attack .. What i see as a personl attack is presumption regarding my motives and when another poster reads something into my statements that simply isn't there .. Thats all ..