As a Catholic looking in, do you guys ever feel trapped in the middle?

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by NextElement, Jun 16, 2014.

  1. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    - @Spherelink

    No, it is not, and I dare you to attempt to find even one Church document that explicitly says otherwise.
     
  2. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    To do so would be triviality itself. If a person commits a mortal sin,

    Then (repentantly, but prior to Confession),

    -are they still in full communion? yes.
    -are they in a state of grace? no.

    I didn't think I'd need to explain RCC catechesis 101 to someone of your acumen.
     
  3. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    You're not in full communion if you're not in a full state of grace.

    "..those bonds of communion -- faith, sacraments, and pastoral governance -- that permit the Faithful to receive the life of grace within the Church."

    - USCCB Memorandum (5 April 2006)
     
  4. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    From Wikipedia:

     
  5. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    You said, @Spherelink: "The RCC church doesn't excommunicate you (rescind full communion) every time you commit a mortal sin (fall from the state of grace)."

    Well, His Holiness the Pope thinks otherwise....

    From Reuters:

     
  6. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    :doh:

    Are you really telling me, that every time you Matthew commit a mortal sin, you are automatically excommunicated?
     
  7. Elizabethan Churchman

    Elizabethan Churchman Active Member

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    Yeah, Matthew, that doesn't sound like it falls under the rubric of what is normally called excommunication. Sounds more like a warning against improperly taking a sacrament while involved in grievous sin.
     
  8. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    Did either of you fully read my earlier comment on latae sententiae excommunication? It ties in with that.
     
  9. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    Sure I read it. It's the statement of automatic excommunication. Now explain please, if you fall under latae sententiae excommunication every time you commit a mortal sin?
     
  10. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    You don't, technically speaking, fall under the latae sententiae classification, because that's a formal designation under canon law.

    But one in a state of mortal sin is excommunicated from the invisible Church, because they are not active members of the Church Militant and they are then destined for Hell (where, of course, there are no Christians). And, practically speaking, that one is also excommunicated from the visible Church, because they cannot formally participate in some respects, including in Holy Communion (which is what the phrase full communion references).
     
  11. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    Then could you explain why you even brought it up at all?

    So much verbiage. Just say in simple terms, yes or no, are you Matthew excommunicated ever time you commit a mortal sin?
     
  12. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    I brought that terminology up because I thought that it could help you understand. I was clearly wrong.

    What is it about my explanation that you do not understand? Do you not understand the concept of the "invisible Church"?
     
  13. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    Unfortunately the terminology was per your admission inapplicable to what we have been discussing, so thanks for trying to teach me Roman Catholic terms that I will never use, but I'd appreciate if we returned to the actual matter at hand.

    Sure, I understand it. Thanks. Now would you please answer Yes or No to my question (it is now the 3rd or 4th time asking it)?
     
  14. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    You're expecting a simple "Yes" or "No", when my answer requires explanation. And I think that you know that.

    Again:

    So, yes, in such a case, you are excommunicated from the invisible Church and (in practice) also the visible Church.
     
  15. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    How is this different from a simple Yes?
     
  16. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Matthew, according to Catholic Answers, only 7 offenses are grounds for automatic excommunication:

    " Offenses punished by automatic excommunication:

    1) An apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic (Can. 1364)

    2) Profanation of the Eucharist (Can. 1367)

    3) Physical attack against the Roman Pontiff (Can. 1370)

    4) Absolution against an accomplice in a sin against the sixth Commandment (Can. 1378, 977)

    5) Consecration of a bishop without a pontifical mandate (Can. 1382)

    6) A priest who violates the sacramental seal of confession (Can. 1388)

    7) A person who procures a completed abortion (Can. 1389)"

    And even these aren't absolutes.

    Scripturally speaking, though, I don't get what the mortal/venial distinction is. All sin leads to death (and thus is mortal) but sin is also forgivable (and thus is venial).
     
  17. MatthewOlson

    MatthewOlson Member

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    I've addressed that, @Lowly Layman. I said, "You don't, technically speaking, fall under the latae sententiae classification, because that's a formal designation under canon law."

    Carefully read what I have said, if you truly wish to understand my position.
     
  18. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    So carefully reading your position, all so-called mortal sin excommunicates the sinner, except it doesn't technically, except it does practically, but only from an invisible church, but also from a visible church, but only insofar as pursuant to canon law in the technical sense, but not in the practical sense, which in the specific only includes 7 offenses giving rise to automatic excommunication, but in the general includes all mortal sin. What sophisticated nonsense is this? My Latin's a tad rusty but Sputum tauri seems a far better name for this line of reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  19. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I'll just stick with the plain truth of Holy Writ.
     
  20. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I dunno maybe my experience was different. He seemed to me to breathe real presence on every single page. I was rather stunned this wasn't a Roman catholic work, so strongly was it "Body of Christ" this and "Holy Body of Our Lord" that. Didn't you get that impression?
     
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