Anglican Eucharist Theology

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by bwallac2335, Feb 4, 2021.

  1. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Please keep in mind that I was raised RC, and my parents took me to Catechism classes religiously; I hardly ever missed a class. Also, since coming out of the RCC I have had many conversations with RCs and have done a fair bit of reading.

    In talking about RC Eucharist, this is the focal point of the "sacrifice of the Mass" (their term). In it, Christ is sacrificed in an "unbloody manner" under the appearances (accidens) of bread and wine. Mu Catholic Faith by Bp. L.L. Morrow S.T.D. says, "The Mass is the sacrifice of the New Law in which Christ, through the ministry of the priest, offers Himself to God in an unbloody manner... This is the sacrifice of Christ, offered once in a bloody manner upon the Cross, and now renewed daily on our altars. The Church has always taught that the Mass is a true sacrifice... a real sacrifice, for in it a Victim is offered up for the purpose of reconciling man with God... the Mass... actually renews, in the separate consecration of the bread and win, the death of the Lord, the separation of His Body and Blood... the Mass is the realization, in an unbloody manner, of the very sacrifice offered up on Calvary in a bloody manner. Christ continues to offer Himself as a sacrifice in the Mass... Because of the Mass, here and now we may offer up repeatedly God as our Victim to God..."

    RCs who understand their doctrine will tell you that their Masses are not an uncountable series of sacrifices, but are instead a continuation of the one sacrifice. Nevertheless, every Mass is a true and real sacrifice of Jesus Christ, in which Jesus comes out of heaven to act through the body of the priest (in personam Christi) to offer Himself continually in sacrifice on the church's altar.

    I'm not trying to be contentious; I'm just setting out the facts. No need for speculation when the facts are available from a RCC-approved Catechetical publication with their Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.
     
  2. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Nor I. I was also just setting out the facts as I understand them.

    Article 3
    THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

    1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord's own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

    1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"

    I. The Eucharist - Source and Summit of Ecclesial Life

    1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life." "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."

    1325 "The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God's action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit."

    1326 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.

    1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: "Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church

    I understand that many RCC people have firm and indelible understandings, often seeming polar opposite to anything many Anglicans might believe. In my estimate, the most reliable source, when appropriate and available if the Catechism of the Catholic Church. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
     
  3. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Heb. 10:10 makes a valid point, as far as I can see, regarding the why we do it, of us meeting together to memorialise the 'Once, and for ALL' sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is a timely reminder that human sin has already been atoned for by that 'Once and for ALL' act of God, in Jesus Christ, not during the act of commemoration or 'sacrifice' performed by a priest in the present. Freedom from the penalty for sin derives only from the original Good Friday sacrifice 'Once and for ALL' of the Son of God. The absolute assurance that that original sacrifice actually applies to us as individuals, here and now, in the act of receiving the sacraments hinges on how, by faith, we each appreciate and apprehend Christ's original atonement. This is what makes it the key moment in history, the crux of the matter of salvation and that alone is what ensures that no intermediary other than Jesus Christ has the power to perform the Holy Mystery of the forgiveness of sins. Intermediaries, celebrants, priests, etc can only recall and remind us of that original atoning sacrifice of Christ on our behalf. They cannot repeat it.
    .
     
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  4. Thomas Didymus

    Thomas Didymus Member

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    I will reflect on others and this, Tiffy. Thanks for sharing.

    Here's a cross reference chain relating to Hebrews 10:10; God's Covenant and general holiness:
    Gen 17:1; Ex 19:6; Lev 11:44, 19:2, 20:7, 26; Amos 3:3; Mt 5:48; Lk 6:36; Jn 17:19; Rom 1:7, 3:22; 1 Cor 1:2, 8:6; Col 1:28, 4:12; 1 Thes 4:7; Heb 10:10; Jas 1:4; 1 Pet 1:15-16; Rev 22:11, 14

    Sent from tablet
     
  5. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    What I'm seeing here is a validation of the point I made earlier, when I wrote: "The RC answer would be that every one of their Eucharists is a continuation of the one sacrifice." The CCC confirms this fact, for it says that Jesus "instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice...in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages..." This goes far beyond anamnesis. The Roman Catholics "continue" and "perpetuate" Jesus' sacrifice via an altar sacrifice called "the sacrifice of the Mass."

    Now, how does one continue to sacrifice Jesus on an altar without 'crucifying the Lord afresh and putting Him to an open shame' (Heb. 6:6)? How does one continue to sacrifice Jesus on an altar, believing (as RCs believe) that the bread and wine change into Jesus' entire body, soul, and divinity, without 'bringing Christ down from above' (Romans 10:6) and causing Him to be physically seen prior to the Second Advent in contradiction of Scripture? These are a couple of the glaring errors in RC Eucharistic theology. To use a baseball analogy, if anamnesis is 'home plate,' the Romans are in deep 'left field,' way back near the 'warning track,' if not completely over the fence! ;)
    That sounds well and good, except for the fact that the RCC has been extremely careful to word some portions of the CCC in light of their recent history, specifically their loss of power and status in the last 200 years. Before the 19th Century, the RCC was the political powerhouse of the western world if not most of the globe, and their words were law. But now, they no longer wield the clout necessary to make kings cower in fear, plus the increases in communication of Bible knowledge and sound theology have forced them to backpedal and 'make nice' with non-Roman churches (and golly, just lately they've even tried to cozy up to the Muslims, atheists, Wiccans, and so on!). Just one example: for centuries the RCC has stated unequivocally that "outside the RCC there is no salvation," but in the CCC they have equivocated substantially and have watered down their stance to avoid offending the rest of Christianity. And of course they are trying to re-frame history itself, claiming that they never, ever said, "no salvation outside the RCC," which will become true after enough elderly folks (who know better) die off and after the lie is repeated enough times. They'll also have to burn all the copies of My Catholic Faith (the text I alluded to earlier) and all other books that contain the historic truth, but give them enough time and they'll get it done. The Jesuits have been re-writing history for hundreds of years, so they're good at it. :p

    In many instances, it's more accurate to find and quote an old, pre-Vatican-II RC Catechism any time we want to know what the RCC is really about. In fact, the older the Catechism, the better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  6. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Vatican II brought enormous change to the RCC, including very specifically liturgy in the vulgar tongue. There are conservative moves to undo parts of V2 and other bodies trying to extend it, something we as Anglicans should understand, only too well. If I formally want to understand what the RCC teaches today, then it seems to me that CCC is the document. If the language has changed and the approach to some issues softened, this may indicate a church in change. The V2 is more in line with the rest of the Church than it was at say Trent or V1.

    Be it clear I am not an RCC apologist, and I fully recognise the difference between anamnesis and words such as continue and perpetuate. They have however come a long way from word I remember speaking of 'making God on the altar'.

    Salus extra ecclesiam non est

    These are the word's of Clement 1, late first century Pope, and it is a claim that Salvation outside the Church does not exist. This basic principle of the primitive church is generally accepted, however how that is understood and how loudly it has been blasted has changed though various periods and various parts of the Church. The Eastern Churches seem generally happy with it, and would understand it perhaps to mean that anyone whom God saves is part of the Church - and the limitations to that would be ineffable, because God is ineffable. The RCC post Schism, and perhaps even more immediately post Reformation, were prepared to understand that they were the whole Church, and salvation was dependent on being in communion with the Pope. That view is still common post v2 among many RCC adherents, however I am not sure that was to true intent of V2, and the CCC does take a softer voice.

    Unity is not found in submission and subjugation, but in mutual respect and acceptance .
     
  7. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    When the RCC officially agrees that people are saved only by grace through faith in God and not by works, then I will respect and accept the RCC as a true Christian church. As it now stands, the Trent anathema upon we who so believe (in salvation by grace through faith and not by works) has never been rescinded and is still a part of official RC doctrine.

    The RCC does not need to submit to us. They need to submit to God and to the truth contained in the written word of God.

    The RCC does not consider us their brothers in the Lord. Yet there are some who are so consumed with the sweet, wonderful concept of ecumenism that they overlook the harsh realities. We cannot be in brotherhood with a 'church' that holds to a heretical concept of salvation; it is impossible! (We can, however, be brothers with those individuals still within the RCC who have seen the light and have placed their trust solely in our Lord, not trusting their priests or their pope or their own good works, even when they have not yet grown sufficiently in understanding to come out from the RC organization.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021